If Obama does not get rid of DADT this year he will never get my Gay vote again.
If I hear another argument based on the false assumption that all Gay or “M/M” Romance is written “By Straight Women For Straight Women” I will be forced to admit the person, organization, company, article writer making such a false assumption is being homophobic on purpose. Because they are working really hard not to notice me or the other Gay Men & WOMEN writing and reading this genre for years now. It might be bad of me to use that term but I am so over the forced ignorance of such arguments. It’s insulting and frustrating and we need less of that for 2010.
I’ll admit Gay Romance exploits the gay men when you admit Straight Romance exploits the straight men. Why are we having this discussion are you going to quit reading Romance?
Things to ponder in 2010… I am not fetishizing anything by reading Gay Romance I live this stuff. Now am I fetishizing Straight Romance or do I just adore men?
Instead of M/M Romance I have decided we should all use the term “Codpiece Ripper” in 2010. I figure it makes a point.
I will give up smoking when Karen quits twittering how many Gay Romances Loose Id publishes on their schedule. Karen, smart writers would rather publish their eBooks with Loose Id than Torquere Press home of the “Guess The Owner’s Pen Names” game. Real cover art and real editing and a publisher that actually respects their intelligence! What’s not to like?
Any other suggestions out there?
Tags: WankTags: Wank
LBea wrote,
Quit smoking anyway, and I’ll send you bacon of the month. If you gotta die–die with bacon.
Mmmmm…bacon….
xxx,
your friend,
lbea
Link | December 28th, 2009 at 7:24 am
Chris wrote,
Where are you going to get a better quit smoking incentive than Bacon of the Month?! LBea could probably start a franchise with that approach…
Link | December 28th, 2009 at 8:33 am
veinglory wrote,
We seem to alternate between the “romance is going gay” moral panic and the “gay romance is going girly” moral panic. Both are irritating and banal. Oh, also the “romance is becoming pr0n” moral panic.
Link | December 28th, 2009 at 8:50 am
katiebabs wrote,
I really don’t care who write Codpiece Rippers as long as they write a good story. Man, women, whoever. Who cares who is behind the pen or computer as long as they write a wonderful story?
Why are some so up in arms about making MM more romantic?
Link | December 28th, 2009 at 9:13 am
AnneD wrote,
I don’t get what Karen’s problem is. She’s even had the OWNER of LI tell her they are not a predominant MM publisher, but they have to play swings and roundabouts with submissions.
Actually, to tell the truth it fucking pisses me off. And… and I think I’ll shut my trap now, because this really pisses me the fuck off, and really what’s the point? LI could publish nothing but MF for 6months and Karen would pick the one week they pub all MM to get on her cart again.
Link | December 28th, 2009 at 9:15 am
AnneD wrote,
PS You should give up the smoking anyway, that shit’s not good for ya.
Link | December 28th, 2009 at 9:17 am
kirsten saell wrote,
I’m of the mind that some of it is exploitation in the same way f/f porn produced with a male audience in mind is exploitation. But who cares? People have a right to have erotic material produced that appeals to them. For a lot of straight guys, that means bimbalicious babes with no personalities and three-inch long fingernails poking delicately at each other and howling like cats. For some women, it means men who act more like women, who fall in love and bang each others’ brains out.
The issue is muddied by the fact that for a lot of women, the emotional is the erotic. I’ve gotten more turned on by a well-written romance with closed-door sex scenes than a lot of the porn I’ve watched. And though it’s nice to know there are authors out there who really put an effort into treating the characters and subject matter with respect and realism, I don’t think it’s necessary. There’s too much defensiveness and apologizing within the genre, IMO. I’d like to see a little more, “I like m/m. Fuck you if you don’t approve.”
That’s sexual agency right there.
Link | December 28th, 2009 at 9:31 am
Julia Rachel Barrett wrote,
This is sort of like reading Playboy for the articles. Readers like romance, passion. lust and love. Actually, I like well-written romance, gay, straight – not too into menage…
Honest, I do search for well-crafted stories and well-rounded characters. I don’t care who writes what.
Link | December 28th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Elle Parker wrote,
This post just boiled down the whole controversy perfectly for me, thank you!
Love the phrase Codpiece Ripper! I might even be able to work a codpiece into my next book, just for fun.
Link | December 28th, 2009 at 10:42 am
h wrote,
What if they are naked? No codpiece to rip (Ow!).
Am sick of explaining why I read m/m / gay romance / slash – no-one seems to care about the reader’s reasons, the question typically frames the reason why the OP/writer writes/reads/doesn’t read it. And it isn’t “just for the sex”. Thank you for letting me read it ‘cos I want to. :)
p.s. Despite some comments I’ve seen floating about, the fact that one does not read m/f (or even f/f) does not equal homophobia, being a woman-hater, or floating in a sea of denial about one’s own sexuality. I can think of four other reasons right now.
p.p.s. I gave up smoking (again) *sigh*
p.p.s.s. Give up meat (I mean become vegetarian or vegan, not ..)!
Link | December 28th, 2009 at 11:09 am
TeddyPig wrote,
What if they are naked? No codpiece to rip (Ow!).
That’s just called getting down to business.
Link | December 28th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
veinglory wrote,
What does it matter if Loose Id does or does not publish a lot of MM? BFD.
Link | December 28th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
Emilie wrote,
I think it’s pretty weird that gay men seem to disappear from some discussions about gay romance. Those who have heard of it, and like to read or write fiction, seem to be fairly interested in the topic one way or another. How hard could it be to get some quotes?
Loose Id publishes all different kinds of romances. They’ve got straight, gay, menage, even a couple with intersexed characters. If you don’t like one type, you can find another, and they put thorough content warnings on their books.
Link | December 28th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Jennifer Leeland wrote,
1. I am no longer going to listen to the babble of “What Sells” since it seems to make no difference to what I write anyway and only causes me to angst. Screw Angst.
2. I’m done with explaining/defending/worrying about that I write “filth” as my mother would say.
3. I love being a Loose-Id author and I don’t write m/m.
Link | December 28th, 2009 at 5:38 pm
Nina wrote,
- I read all types of romance genres, although most of it is M/M. While people complain about too much romance in M/M, why don’t they also complain about too much talking in F/F and M/F? Sometimes, I just want the characters to shut up and get it on without trying to justify everything. Lot’s of hot sex in a well written book isn’t trashy. It’s entertainment.
- The only complaint that I seem to have in reference to women writing M/M is that the details become fuzzy during the love scenes. Don’t get me wrong JL Langely, Jet Mykles, and Jamie Craig’s books are great, but when you look at love scenes created by male writers like Ryan Field, Cameron Dane, and John Simpson the whole feel is different more earthy and real.
- All in all I love it all, and Loose Id is the place where I find most of my books. I say let people complain, just let me have my books.
Link | December 29th, 2009 at 9:48 am
TeddyPig wrote,
Actually Nina,
I personally think there is a balance on the whole male versus female writing Gay Romance argument.
I think women know how to write interesting characters well. They make the love scenes integral to the Gay Romance, because they read tons of traditional Straight Romance, and yes they tend to be more about the physical closeness and the emotions created by the scene instead the elaborate sex act itself but I will say that women understand the innate balance it takes to keep the story going without it all becoming Porn.
On the other hand male Gay Romance writers are used to writing Porn because we read it more often so yeah their Gay Romance love scenes tend to be more elaborate more fetish driven and more detail oriented BUT they also tend to be superfluous to any plot or Romance going on IF there even is a plot or Romance which in some cases has been a big fat NO. Those male writers who do have solid plots and know how to write may simply slap a couple of sex scenes in to meet unspoken Romance requirements and then again that’s makes sex scenes not integral to the relationship development.
So in summery women writers tend to know the balance in Romance and guys have to work harder at figuring it out.
As a gay guy that has been my experience with that argument yours of course may very.
Link | December 29th, 2009 at 10:17 am
Wave wrote,
I like Loose Id and my complaint is that they never have enough M/M or gay romance releases :) because I don’t read menages (unless they are M/M/M) or het or f/f.
Don’t like all the articles slanted to women re “M/M is written by straight women for straight women.” They insult those who read these books that are not of the female persuasion or bi women and men, as well as a growing readership among gay men.
M/M is not perfect, but then no literary genre is. I still have major problems with and could do with much less “chicks with dicks” in these books and unrealistic characterizations, but I love the sub genre and if I have to put up with a few “girly men” then I guess that’s my punishment.:-D
Love the term codpiece ripper – where can I find a codpiece to rip?
Link | December 29th, 2009 at 10:18 pm
ShellBell wrote,
I love the term codpiece ripper. Will have to start using it from now on.
I am an avid reader of all types of genres – thrillers, horror stories, fantasy, romances, erotica, biographies etc. I’ll read pretty much anything as long as it is well written. Most of the romances/erotica I read are m/f but some are m/f/m or m/m. Some may only be bonkfests but if it is a book that I have enjoyed then the sex of the author is of little relevance to me.
TeddyPig – if you give up smoking I’ll buy a Mac!
..
..
..
..
Okay, I’m lying….. I bought a MacBook on Sunday (Merry Christmas to me!), but the thought was there. I’ll add my pleas for you to quit smoking.
Link | December 29th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
Karen Scott wrote,
I don’t get what Karen’s problem is. She’s even had the OWNER of LI tell her they are not a predominant MM publisher, but they have to play swings and roundabouts with submissions.
Well Anne, my problem is my perception differs from what Treva says. I gave you the number of GLBT books in comparison to the number of M/F books for the year to date. I didn’t just pick out the weeks that suited my argument, I picked out the first ten pages, and they totally backed up my perception. Tell me I’m wrong. Or even better, prove that you’re right.
Actually, to tell the truth it fucking pisses me off. And… and I think I’ll shut my trap now, because this really pisses me the fuck off, and really what’s the point? LI could publish nothing but MF for 6months and Karen would pick the one week they pub all MM to get on her cart again.
Interesting. How about the weeks where MM books were the majority, and I didn’t highlight them? I don’t see you getting your knickers in a twist over that. Because believe it or not Anne, I don’t sit and wait for release day at Loose-Id. I guess it’s just pure bad luck that the one week when I decided to see if there were any books worth getting, they were all MM huh?
Also, you know what I love? When people refuse to take me on directly, but instead come and bitch on somebody else’s blog. I sent you enough Twitter replies that if you were feeling pissed off at me, you should have been able to say so.
Oh and Teddy, you should quit smoking anyway, it’s very bad for your health.
Link | December 30th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
TeddyPig wrote,
Karen,
I do not get why you obsess over Loose Id you never review their books anyway. Hell, you promote other sites to review AA Romance even. I cannot recall the last time you promoted an AA Romance writer on your blog. I do not remember you ever admitting to even being a Loose Id customer.
So what gives? You want them to be more straight M/F the way you want without spending any money or promoting them? And why should people have to confront you on twitter? I don’t really care for it myself.
Link | December 30th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Karen Scott wrote,
Karen, smart writers would rather publish their eBooks with Loose Id than Torquere Press home of the “Guess The Owner’s Pen Names” game. Real cover art and real editing and a publisher that actually respects their intelligence! What’s not to like?
The argument isn’t about why there are so many MM books at Loose-Id, after all, Loose-id is a good e-pub – no, the issue is my perception of Loose-id as a predominantly a GLBT publisher. A perception that the owner denies, even though doing an actual count backs up my perception.
In truth it doesn’t even really matter, but I’m not one to easily let anything go if I think I’m right, you should appreciate that trait Teddy.
Link | December 30th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
TeddyPig wrote,
Karen,
What truth? The owner writes Gay Romance so she has more of an interest than others in promoting Gay Romance writers. What truth are you going for here? I don’t get your obsession really. It does not seem to bother the Straight Romance writers working there or is that what you are searching for some inequality towards Straight Romance people. Something must be wrong because good Gay Romance is being promoted?
Josh Lanyon is very prolific but I would not want to miss one of his books he rocks you should try him sometime.
Link | December 30th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
Karen Scott wrote,
I do not get why you obsess over Loose Id you never review their books anyway
I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but I’m not that big on reviewing period, besides, surely if I want to obsess over LI that’s my prerogative? And let’s not get into things we each obsess over, because we’d be here all day.
I cannot recall the last time you promoted an AA Romance writer on your blog.
I believe this is what one calls ‘going off tangent’, but I’ll play.
Teddy, is it your belief that because I’m black, I should promote AA authors? Really? Because I have to tell you, as much as I like raising the issue of racism in romance, I still pretty much only mention/promote authors/books that moved me in some way, whether it be in a negative or positive way.
I do not remember you ever admitting to even being a Loose Id customer.
Really? Oh well. I don’t think I mention being a Liquid Silver Publishing customer, but guess what?
So what gives? You want them to be more straight M/F the way you want without spending any money or promoting them?
This really isn’t about wanting Loose-id to publish more M/F books. It truly isn’t. After all, I do have a choice as to where I buy my books. I’m simply pointing out, that the books they publish tend to be more GLBT than M/F, despite the claims of the owners/authors.
And why should people have to confront you on twitter?
Funnily enough, at the time, I wouldn’t have considered it a confrontation, rather a discussion between two people with opposing points of view.
Link | December 30th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
Karen Scott wrote,
The owner writes Gay Romance so she has more of an interest than others in promoting Gay Romance writers.
Teddy, that’s what you’re saying, not what Treva Hart is saying, had she said what you’re saying, then this ‘debate’ would have ended at my initial post, because there would have been nothing more to say.
I don’t care why there are huggings of MM books up at Loose-Id, I’m more interested about the denial in the first instance.
It does not seem to bother the Straight Romance writers working there or is that what you are searching for some inequality towards Straight Romance people.
Yeah Teddy, because I am all about looking for “inequality towards Straight Romance People”.
I would have thought that you’d have known me enough to know that if that was my agenda, it would have been made plain. I’m not huge on pussy-footing around.
Link | December 30th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
TeddyPig wrote,
Teddy, is it your belief that because I’m black, I should promote AA authors? Really? Because I have to tell you, as much as I like raising the issue of racism in romance, I still pretty much only mention/promote authors/books that moved me in some way, whether it be in a negative or positive way.
Hell Karen, YES! Being a gay guy I try to even discuss and promote Lesbian Romance which I have no interest in what-so-ever because I think it is a good thing and I want to promote good things. And you know I am not always kind even to those people I consider a friend. I try to even ask myself the tough questions even of myself. I put my neck out there and I will apologize if I am wrong.
Really? Oh well. I don’t think I mention being a Liquid Silver Publishing customer, but guess what?
Actually you did. I read your blog and I know you are a customer over at Liquid Silver and so am I.
Link | December 30th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
TeddyPig wrote,
Teddy, that’s what you’re saying, not what Treva Hart is saying, had she said what you’re saying, then this ‘debate’ would have ended at my initial post, because there would have been nothing more to say.
What does Treva Harte need to say? I read her books, she is a good writer and I liked her Alpha Series. She has written several Gay Romances. Not everyone wants to be seen in public arguing over perceptions when I am sure they would rather be selling books.
Link | December 30th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
Karen Scott wrote,
Hell Karen, YES! Being a gay guy I try to even discuss and promote Lesbian Romance which I have no interest in what-so-ever because I think it is a good thing and I want to promote good things.
OK I have to totally disagree with you, I raise the Racism in Romance issues because I want to, not because I feel I have to. Being black means that I am more invested in what happens to black authors, but if I didn’t want to talk about it, I really wouldn’t, nor should I have to. Especially seeing as I’m not even an African American reader, and those are the people who are affected the most.
No, it’s great that you promote stuff that you have no interest in, but I’d rather gouge my eyes out, than endorse anything that bores me stupid.
Link | December 30th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Karen Scott wrote,
What does Treva Harte need to say?
Treva doesn’t have to say a damned thing, but equally, I don’t have to shut up either.
Link | December 30th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
TeddyPig wrote,
Being black means that I am more invested in what happens to black authors, but if I didn’t want to talk about it, I really wouldn’t, nor should I have to.
No, I agree with you. I assumed you read AA Romance from your posts about that. My bad. If I didn’t actually read Gay Romance I probably would have no interest in blogging on this topic either but I do try to extend out from that since I am aware of other issues like Lesbian Romance trying to get noticed. Which I try to help out even if I notice I mostly discuss it in comments.
Treva doesn’t have to say a damned thing, but equally, I don’t have to shut up either.
Well that seems futile to me to make an ongoing issue of something that does not even effect you over books that you do not even review so you do not know if they are good or bad to begin with.
As many people who do review those books and are customers have pointed out they wish Loose Id would publish Gay Romance more often than they are. I agree with them if it means more of a chance for another J.L. Langley or a Josh Lanyon to appear. Both authors happen to write for Loose Id by the way.
Link | December 30th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
Angelia Sparrow wrote,
This year I resolve to take up smoking cigars, drink as much as I want, swear like a trucker (oh wait) and consort with floozies as much as lesbianically possible.
I also promise to write at least one full novel, which I didn’t last year.
And it will be roaring 20s pulp, not a codpiece ripper. The codpiece ripper is the steampunk novella that i well within range of being finished.
Also, if you buy LooseID’s het, try Katherine Carswell!
Link | January 3rd, 2010 at 8:16 pm
TeddyPig wrote,
Flappers and G-Men Oh my!
Link | January 3rd, 2010 at 8:20 pm
AnneD wrote,
So, it seems I missed out on a whole big discussion here. Go figure, I thought the comments finished on the 29th with ShellBell.
Karen – as I said on your blog, I chose not to reply on twitter because I was angry. Angry and 140chars doesn’t mix well. I was angry that I don’t believe that even once you’ve made a comment along the lines of (even snarkily) ‘whatdaya know, LI has 3MF this week’, it is always a comment on a heavy MM week. That’s your prerogative of course to make one sided commentary, you want someone to give you a pissy reaction, and while I didn’t do it on twitter I did it here. Bad call on my behalf, I should have just stuck with the ranting on this side of the computer screen. Which is where I will keep it from now on.
Link | January 4th, 2010 at 10:38 am
Bree wrote,
It does not seem to bother the Straight Romance writers working there
I’m not 100% sure what “it” is referring to in this instance, but since I’ve got a couple m/f romances at Loose Id, I did want to offer one thing.
It does not, in the least, bother me if there are more gay than straight romances released at Loose Id. But it does bother me a lot if there is a perception that Loose Id only publishes gay romance. I don’t know how that couldn’t bother me–just from a business stand point, that is really, really bad for me, because it means people looking specifically for the type of story I write will assume Loose Id doesn’t have it.
Now how prevalent that perception is…I can’t say. But I’d be a liar if I said it isn’t something that worries me every time I see it mentioned.
Link | January 4th, 2010 at 10:43 am
TeddyPig wrote,
Bree,
Both Karen and Jane at Dear Author seem to be hell bent in labeling Loose Id a strictly Gay Romance publisher despite numerous eBooks they publish that are not Gay Romance. I honestly do not get it. Not to mention Jane’s assertion that Gay Romance is written “by women for women” when clearly there are Gay Men and Women involved. You cannot reason with those who want to be right despite whatever the real facts are. I just consider them sticking their hands over their ears yelling they can’t hear you.
Link | January 4th, 2010 at 10:56 am
AnneD wrote,
We all knew I was going to count count the whole fucking lot, didn’t we….
@Karen *… even though doing an actual count backs up my perception.*
The whole count. Not a small sampling.
Using the All Books page.
46 Pages/18 to a page bar the final page (2).
(Give me a leeway of 5 ( I already know I missed two, somewhere along the way) – and that mainly on the MF and MMF/MFM side as sometimes the blurbs/covers didn’t reflect menage. MM covers were obvious.)
MF = 393 = 48%
MMF/MFM/MFF = 135 = 16%
MM = 275 = 33%
FF = 5
NonF = 1
Yes, I just wasted about 3 hours physically counting every book on every page. All 812 or so of them.
Link | January 4th, 2010 at 7:51 pm
Edie wrote,
Well as a previously regular customer of Loose Id, there has definitely been a noticeable swing to MM, not saying it is good or bad. But for readers who do not read MM there is less reason to check there regularly to find new titles. If that makes sense?
LI used to be one of my main stops, now I check in there once in a blue moon, or only if I see a review or something elsewhere.
I think it is something worth talking about.
Link | January 4th, 2010 at 7:58 pm
TeddyPig wrote,
Edie what amazes me is there has always been some mix of Gay Romance at Ellora’s Cave and Samhain and Liquid Silver and Amber Press etc this is why I started reading and promoting those ePublishers in the first place but the minute a ePublisher not only publishes Gay Romance but gets reviewed quite often for having very good Gay Romance authors as I have noted on this blog even though they only have published like 275 Gay Romance eBooks in all they are perceived to have swung to be “only” a Gay Romance ePublisher. Even though there is no fact to that assertion.
I also made a point on this same blog of showing that I have bought several really good Straight Romance titles from Loose Id that I enjoyed. Because unlike many readers out there I read both and always have (I have no problem mixing Lora Leigh with Josh Lanyon.) and as Anne points out there are 393 Straight Romance eBooks to choose from.
But I noticed no one really wanted to discuss that Straight Romance aspect when I brought it up. In fact Straight Romance reviews are the least read part of my website. If that is any indication of sales then that figures.
This just comes across like some threat to me that if Loose Id becomes too well noted with the Gay Romance then they are not welcome to the “Romance Club” anymore because they are really not focusing on being a Straight Romance Publisher in that Romantic Times or RITA sense of Romance Publishing. You know the one where Gay Romance is nasty porn and not allowed to soil their image.
Link | January 4th, 2010 at 8:31 pm
Edie wrote,
- I am all for the mix, (wish there was more FF in the mix but hey) but LI is getting less and less of a mix. I don’t think it is anything to do with reviews, recognition, etc, it is to do with what is on the front page, what readers like me who used to check LI every week for new releases is seeing when they click on the home page. And that is a domination of MM, MMF, etc.
For me the key to this discussion is not really facts, it is the perception. I go to homepage see three double MT covers on the top and I go, again there is nothing here for me – back button. And it has happened often enough that I do not check their regularly anymore.
- I have a bootload of good het romances on the old USB stick from Loose Id, but since I have been going there from the early days, I have the majority that are of interest to me, it is new ones that I am after, and am not finding them with any regularity.
(Though mind you if AD would write another Huntingdawn book, I would be all over that like a rash quicker than you can say ‘internet hijinks’)
- Hon, I could be making a wild stab in the dark, but I have always assumed that het reviews are not really what would draw people to your site, they want your opinion on MM, they get the het elsewhere. Could be wrong, I just visit for fun opinion pieces.
- I can’t really comment on the RWA viability of a press, (doesn’t the W stand for wankfest?) though whether that is close or not anyways… again I am just commenting on perceptions that I have, and share with (admittedly a small) group of other readers
Link | January 5th, 2010 at 6:55 am
Edie wrote,
eek sorry that is a messy jumble of a post. *cringe* I thought I had gaps between the paras.
Link | January 5th, 2010 at 6:57 am
TeddyPig wrote,
Hon, I could be making a wild stab in the dark, but I have always assumed that het reviews are not really what would draw people to your site, they want your opinion on MM, they get the het elsewhere. Could be wrong, I just visit for fun opinion pieces.
That’s my point though people perceive me as only doing Gay Romance because I am a gay man and don’t bother with the other Straight Romance reviews. That is a perception that is not based on facts and I could go on arguing for days but that is not going to change what people have labeled me. I am used to that labeling in the real world you just go on being yourself despite whatever is said as long as you are doing well who cares.
I can not really fight that perception just as people at Loose Id should not bother arguing over the facts because the facts (just like Anne pointed out with the real numbers) don’t change (Anyone can count) and as long as they are doing well arguing about them just points out how people who are probably not their customers anyway are not paying attention but they are also not paying the bills. Which just pisses them off so no win just hurt feelings which is not good business and if anything Loose Id should consider business first not argue about perceptions.
Link | January 5th, 2010 at 7:38 am
Edie wrote,
Not they perceive you as only doing Gay romance, it is just that it is what they are more interested in reading your opinions on. Again speculation.
Perceptions and labelling bite, but it is a very important thing in business, for both the company and the customer. And realistically that is what we are talking here how customers perceive Loose Id the company. And while yes, if you get past the front page dominance of recent times, and do some serious counting the numbers go against the perception, but what average customer is going to take the time to do that?
ie. They go to the new release page three weeks in a row, and see the MM releases dominating those three weeks in a row, an opinion forms.
From what is on the hard drive, I have only brought 40 books from them in the (roughly) last two years, so I guess I am a fairly small fry customer, but I still consider myself their customer.
I don’t get really how feelings come into the discussion?
Sorry if I am repeating myself, I have kinda run smack into the exhaustion wall.
Link | January 5th, 2010 at 8:57 am
Edie wrote,
PS. You need an edit function for fumbling posters like me. ;)
That last bit is physical exhaustion, not conversation exhaustion, thought I should clarify.
Link | January 5th, 2010 at 9:00 am
TeddyPig wrote,
Well as I tell people perceptions are not the whole thing. Amber Quill Press has even separate pages with separate imprint names for Straight Romance and Gay Romance.
They still have come right out and said their Gay Romance makes more money so there you go. Because let’s face it they are known also for having some good Gay Romance writers. Not because they “only” publish Gay Romance.
Samhain bless them is top notch eBook wise but I have to admit they are not my go to publisher for Gay Romance. They do not seem to take the risks other ePubs do with new Gay Romance authors.
For business in my opinion that’s all that really matters. Taking risks that pay off. You go in the direction the customers spend the bucks and not worry about how you are perceived as long as that has nothing to do with poor quality and you are open minded but also sound business wise you are good to go.
As Treva did say she publishes what is of good quality that is sent to her. She can’t magically create Straight Romance manuscripts out of thin air. I am sure if a Straight Romance author over on Loose Id got more support and promotion from the Romance Community there would be nothing stopping them from publishing more books. That was my main point. You as a customer have to financially and publicly support those authors you want to read not expect anyone to just serve your needs without giving back.
Link | January 5th, 2010 at 9:14 am
Edie wrote,
I don’t think I have even been to AQP… Have they been around long?
True, re. business going where the dosh is, and possibly caring less about perceptions to differing markets, indeed that makes sense. I don’t have a beef with the shift, I was just chiming in with my noticing of the shift of focus, and that there is less for non-MM readers at the site.
I guess my main point is they have to know it is there to support it.
Though I brought a ell of a lot more in 2006-07, but my support didn’t add up to that much obviously. ;)
Thanks for the discussion TP!
I promise to go back to lurkdom now and stop rambling at you.
Link | January 5th, 2010 at 9:45 am
TeddyPig wrote,
Oh and I have been trying to find an editing pluggin that works with this site but for some reason it does not want to install properly.
Link | January 5th, 2010 at 10:12 am
Bree wrote,
Edie–I do understand that you are discussing perception, not fact, and I actually think that is an important (and interesting!) topic. My problem comes from people who say, “Well, it seems like it’s all MM so I bet it is, but no, I can’t be bothered to go look, but don’t you tell me that I’m WRONG.”
This is just me, but whenever I hear this perception confirmed by someone, I have a comic flash-forward montage in my head of a self-fulfilling prophecy death spiral:
Someone says (incorrectly), “Loose Id publishes very little m/f!” -> Fewer people shop specifically for m/f there -> Fewer authors think it’s a good place for their m/f to be noticed -> Treva gets fewer m/f manuscripts -> Fewer m/f books are published -> Someone goes to the latest releases page and sees very few m/f -> Someone says (slightly more correctly), “Loose Id published very little m/f!” -> And we’re off again…
Is that true or even possible? Hell if I know. I think Loose Id has some great authors and I am really glad that gay romance has such a strong, vibrant presence there. That’s my opinion as a person and a reader.
As an author of pretty much exclusively m/f, though, I do have to consider the possibility that I could become an accidental impulse buy there. Everyone knows that B&N sells music, and lots of book buyers also enjoy purchasing music. But when people go to B&N, they’re usually there for the books or, maybe, for a very specific CD that they know the store will have. If they want to browse albums, they’ll probably go to some place that they perceive as having a wider selection of music.
I guess the only other thing I’d like to say is that I hope Loose Id continues to provide awesome gay romance, and that while I have to take note of perception as a m/f author published with Loose Id, it’s not because I think it would be a bad thing for them to be a predominantly GLBT publisher in truth as well as perception. It might make me reconsider where the best market is for my work, but there are plenty of publishing opportunities for me. :)
Excuse me, Teddy, for the endless comment. LOL I have been thinking about all of this stuff since the LAST go-around, but since I’m a co-writer who has to think about how I’m going to be screwing with my partner’s career every time I open my mouth, I try very hard to make sure I’m being rational. In this case, rational might be directly opposed to coherent though. :D
Link | January 5th, 2010 at 10:16 am
TeddyPig wrote,
No it’s OK Bree,
We are such I small community and yes I agree there seems to become a lot of self fufilling prophecies around this stuff.
That to me is also where I come down on those complaining and ask have they promoted or talked to or shown some support of an author they enjoy reading outside of maybe buying an eBook every once in a while.
These eBooks are like audience participation to me since the audience is so small.
I went down to several Gay Bookstores I shop at and have given these books in print to them and promoted them and had really great reactions for doing so. That’s my way besides this blog of attempting to support those authors I enjoy and let them know I want to read more of their books. I want to be constructive in my efforts not just sit around bitching about what does not work for me. Anyone can do that.
Link | January 5th, 2010 at 10:47 am
ML wrote,
From a writer’s perspective – and having a bit of an inside into the biz as it were – any rise in m/m releases is probably a direct correlation to the fact that m/m has become a big seller in the e-book world. What happens is this: several writers hit it big with a m/m or m/m/f and they think ‘holy cow’. And maybe another m/m or m/m/f story hits them and they go with it, instead of that het story they have in the drafting stage. And they tell their friends(some pubbed, some not) about how great their LGBT book did. And those friends think, ‘I have a m/m story I’ve been thinking about…’ etc, et al.
And this actually happened a couple of years back. First one book at one pub, then two, then a bundle. And because they do sell better (I have both m/m/f and het – the menages sell better) more aspiring writers try LGBT to get their foot in the door. And established writers too will jump on. Yes, writing is art but its also business and if you’re hoping to stay in business you don’t HAVE to write what’s hot, but you better at least know what the competition/new trend is at any given time.
That said, het romance is the bread and butter that I as a writer like to call stability. Maybe you don’t sell two thousand copies of your het story, at least not out of the gate, but generally they bring in a nice, steady paycheck. M/m is hot as Hades out of the gate, but IME (ymmv) the sales also drop off more sharply than with the het. So, I have no fear that Loose, or any other of my fav e-pubs, are going to drop their het lines. At this point, they are publishing the best of what is submitted and trying to maintain balance. Eventually, maybe, the m/m m/m/f train will slow and het will see another upswing. Until then, I’m going to keep on reading- and writing – both and enjoying it :D
Link | January 5th, 2010 at 10:35 pm