So Siren~Bookstrand is publishing a book by

Christine Phoenix ~ I Will Follow You

Here is an excerpt…

Sebastian looked around and took everything in, trying to decide who he would tear apart first. The clearing was surrounded by trees. It was roughly the size of half a football field. This must be where the pack met and shifted on full moons since it was far outside town. If a werewolf had the ability to shift, the pull of the full moon was too much for them, and they shifted. Sebastian didn’t have that problem. Lycans learned to control their shift at puberty. The location was good for him, no witnesses to their fight, and it was good to be close to the earth, surrounded by nature As a shape-shifter, his magic was defined by the elements, so he was stronger if surrounded by its source.
The fragile Omega went limp, nearly succeeding in making the two men holding him let go. It didn’t work, but it surprised them all enough to allow the little man to get a good kick in. He hit the third man, who was wrestling with his pants, right in the mouth. Blood flew as the man’s head jerked to the side. Blood splattered over the Alpha.
“You little bitch.” The man the Omega had struck stepped forward, doubled up his fist, and popped the Omega right in the temple.
The little man collapsed, his head lolling forward on his neck.
Sebastian saw red. A growl erupted from his throat and drew the attention of all the men. They dropped the unconscious Omega and turned toward him.
“Who the fuck are you?” the man in the green shirt demanded.
The Alpha blinked over at him and put his hand on the man who’d been tugging on the Omega’s pants. “This, I imagine, is Sebastian Killian. The reason we were meeting out here in the first place.” The man raised a brow. “Do we have a problem, Mr. Killian?”
“Yes.” Sebastian glanced at the Omega sprawled on his stomach in the grass. He sensed a heartbeat coming from the man, and it was strong. It was the only reason the men in front of him weren’t already dead. “Explain to me why the five of you are beating up on an Omega?”
The smallest of the men frowned. “Who do you think you are, mister? This is a pack matter.”
“I’m Sebastian Killian, and as Alpha of the East coast packs, I’m your Alpha as ordered by Prince Gabriel. I’m here to keep an eye on your pack and any others in my territory. You do not get to refuse me anything! Where I come from, we treat our fellow wolves, especially Omegas, with a little more respect than what I see here. If you touch that boy…”
“You’ll what, asshole? We don’t answer to Lycans,” the big man sneered and stalked toward Sebastian.
Sebastian was ready for him. He caught the man’s fist in one hand, crushing it, and slashed his other over the screaming man’s abdomen, raking him wide open, ripping through muscle. He really would have loved to kill every single one of them, but he wanted to get to the little man on the ground more.
The man staggered back, his eyes wide, clutching his stomach with his broken hand.
The two men who’d been holding the Omega charged Sebastian. He dispatched them as effortlessly, stabbing one in the stomach with his claws and slashing the other across his throat. It was pathetically easy. Sebastian was an eight hundred year old Lycan warrior. They had no chance.
He looked up at the Alpha and the man in the green shirt, while the others writhed on the ground at his feet. Sebastian grinned. “Who’s next?”
The man in the green started forward though Sebastian saw the hesitation and he reeked of fear. The Alpha’s hand reached out and landed on his shoulder, stopping him. “Not now.”
The man’s eyes widened, but he said nothing and backed away.
The Alpha shook his head, his eyes never leaving Sebastian. “Gather them up, and let’s go.”
Sebastian glared back at the leader, keeping the others in his peripheral vision. They were injured, but they were weres and healed extremely fast. He should just kill them and get it over with. They were trouble, and with their lack of intelligence, it would come to him killing them anyway.
The green-shirted were managed to get the other three on their feet, mostly, half carrying the first two guys, and headed toward the cars.
The pack leader walked past Sebastian, head held high. Sebastian turned and watched them go, keeping his front to the weres.
“I do hope you know what you are doing, Lycan.” He spat it out like it was a dirty word. To him, it probably was.
“Because you have just challenged me, and I can’t have that. You will be hearing from me.” The Alpha followed his men through the trees to the parked cars.
Sebastian rolled his eyes. He was right. The Alpha was stupid and suicidal. “I really should just kill them,” he muttered, disgusted.
Sebastian hesitated, torn between following them to make sure they didn’t mess with his truck, and getting to the Omega to see how bad his injuries were. He closed his eyes, focusing on his truck, with a thought he bespelled it against tampering, then quickly turned to the little man lying unconscious on the ground. Sebastian could feel the others leave without incident. He shook his head at how even now the weres had no real understanding of Lycans. Sebastian thought the werewolves let their human side run the show which he believed kept most from being able to shift. They had no real connection to their wolf.
Sebastian checked the Omega for injuries but luckily found none, reaching up and touching the man’s delicate back. He felt static shocks move through his fingertips as he stroked the man’s neck. He drew his hand back, looking at it curiously. That had never happened before. He had learned control over his magic at an early age and had never had even a tingle without calling out for it. He focused on the Omega more intently, continuing to touch his face, feeling his magic move like a soft shock. The Omega moaned, but didn’t move.
Mate.
Sebastian’s eyes narrowed. He now understood the pull. A grin stretched across his face. The little man was his mate, and he would also be his Omega.

 

Anything seem remotely familiar here?

Now here is an excerpt of J.L. Langley ~ With Love

Dev looked around and took everything in, trying to decide the best point of attack. The clearing was surrounded by trees. It was roughly the size of half a football field. This must be where the pack met before they hunted on a full moon.

The Omega went limp, nearly succeeding in making the two men holding him let go. It didn’t work, but it surprised them all enough to allow the redhead to get a good kick in. He hit the third man who was wrestling with his pants, right in the mouth. Blood flew as the man’s head jerked to the side. Crimson splatters splashed over the Alpha.

“You little son of a bitch.” The man the Omega struck stepped forward, doubled up his fist and popped the Omega right in the temple.

The redhead collapsed, his head lulling forward on his neck.

Dev saw red, a growl erupted from his throat and drew the attention of the five men. They dropped the Omega and turned towards Dev.

“Who the fuck are you?” the man in the green shirt demanded.

The Alpha blinked over at him and put his hand on the man who’d been tugging on the Omega’s pants. “This, I imagine, is Mr. Devlin Johns. The reason we were meeting out here in the first place.” The man raised a brow. “Do we have a problem, Mr. Johns?”

“We just might.” Dev glanced at the Omega sprawled on his stomach in the grass. He had no idea if the man was still alive or not. A blow to the temple like that could kill a human, but the man was a wolf, even if a weaker one. “Would someone like to explain to me why the five of you are beating up on a much smaller, much weaker man?”

The largest of the men frowned. “Who do you think you are, mister? This is a pack matter.”

“Since I’m considering joining your pack, I’d say I have a right to know what’s going on. Where I come from we treat our fellow wolves with a little more respect than what I see here. If that boy is dead—”

“You’ll what, asshole?” The big man stalked towards Dev.

Dev was ready for him. He caught the man’s fist in one hand and slashed his other over the man’s abdomen, raking him wide open.

The man staggered back, his eyes wide, clutching his stomach.

The two men who’d been holding the redhead charged Dev. He dispatched them as effortlessly, stabbing one in the stomach with his claws and abrading the other across the face. It was pathetically easy. Dev was quite a bit quicker than them.

He looked up at the Alpha and the man in the green shirt, while the other three writhed on the ground at Dev’s feet. “Who’s next?”

The man in the green started forward but the Alpha’s hand landed on his shoulder, holding him back. “Not now.”

“But—” the man sputtered.

The Alpha shook his head, his eyes never leaving Dev. “I said not now, Peter. Gather them up and let’s go.”

Dev glared back at the leader, keeping the others in his peripheral vision. They were injured, but they were wolves and healed extremely fast.

Peter managed to get the other three on their feet and headed towards the cars.

The pack leader walked past Dev, head held high.

Dev turned and watched them go, keeping his front to the five wolves.

“I do hope you know what you are doing, Mr. Johns, because you have just challenged my authority and I can’t have that. Rest assured, you will be hearing from me.” The Alpha followed his men through the trees to the parked cars.

Dev hesitated, torn between following them to make sure they didn’t mess with his truck, and getting to the kid to see if he was all right. Dev couldn’t do much for the kid if he couldn’t get them out of here. So he followed the men, standing in the tree line glaring at them until they piled into the three cars. They left without incident, but Dev was certain he hadn’t seen the last of them. He shook his head and hurried back to the clearing as soon as the last car drove out of sight.

Dev had been taught from an early age that Omegas were to be respected, not mistreated because they were weaker. They were the ones who held a pack together, they ran interference, they coordinated and listened to the pack’s complaints and took them to the Alpha, they were the pack ambassadors, the peacekeepers. What did this little redhead do to piss off his pack leader so badly?

He knelt by the smaller man, touching his back. Only then did he realize his hands were still claws. He relaxed and willed his hands back to normal. His canine teeth remained and his vision shifted, going black and white again, probably due to the adrenaline rush. It would wear off eventually and there was no one there to see him anyway. The rise and fall of the little Omega’s breathing was easily discernable. Thank God. He leaned down next to the redhead, meaning to gently turn him, and gasped as he caught scent of him.

The man’s scent was like nothing Dev had ever smelled before. He smelled like a wolf and he was definitely a weaker, submissive wolf, but he was…enthralling? That was the only word that came to mind. Dev’s cock, which was still hard, began to throb.

Come on, Dev, get a grip. He rolled the smaller man over on to his back and nearly swallowed his tongue. Happy freakin’ Valentine’s Day to me. The Omega was beautiful.

Hello Samhain! Hello, you in there? I think you need to look at this. Hello?

Tags: ,

"Hello Samhain… Christine Phoenix: I Will Cut & Paste You" by TeddyPig was published on April 22nd, 2011 and is listed in J.L. Langley, Samhain Publishing.

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Comments on "Hello Samhain… Christine Phoenix: I Will Cut & Paste You": 157 Comments

  1. Stumbling Over Chaos :: Sing a song of linkity wrote,

    [...] Looks like J.L. Langley’s been plagiarized. [...]

  2. TeddyPig wrote,

    Can you believe that shit?

    J.L. Langley like no one would notice or something.

    Good god!

  3. JL Langley wrote,

    Thanks so much for drawing attention to this. Hopefully, this will be a warning for other authors and pushers to be on the look out for plagiarism. Samhain is wonderful. They’d been working on this all day, and hopefully we will get this resolved soon.

  4. Dhympna wrote,

    I am rather stunned by the sheer audacity of it and my eyeballs are still recovering from the teenage boy myspace chic thing that Phoenix has going on over at her blog.

  5. TeddyPig wrote,

    You are a sweet heart Jen it stuns me anyone would do this for real.

    It cannot imagine it would even be anyone who is actually part of this community.

  6. TeddyPig wrote,

    For his next trick what was he going to do The Fake and Adrian Mysteries or something?

  7. Tina Haveman wrote,

    Nothing surprises me anymore. I wonder how much plagiarism is out there??? It happened at eXtasy Books just last September. We had to pull over thirty books because an author plagiarized, and of course we didn’t know if she’d done it in any of her other books, or the 17 co-written stories. It sadly affected two co-authors. It needs a reader with an excellent memory of what they’ve read before to find it. It was a reader who alerted us. With so many books out there now and self publishing going bezerk, how could we ever know if an author isn’t copying/pasting whole sections from other authors’ works??? The internet is great but it also poses the above dangers for authors, especially if large sections of books are posted for everyone to read.

  8. Dhympna wrote,

    I admit to being quite curious as to what other books he/she has borrowed for future publication with Siren.

  9. TeddyPig wrote,

    Well Tina if large sections of the books are available then Google will find the matching parts even faster. Sure any idiot can cut and paste out of any eBook but you can also find those copies just that much quicker too if the excerpts are available online properly attributed to the author being copied from.

    So making sure things are available online to compare to does have it’s benefits. Let the robots read your excerpts and watch for the matches to pop up.

  10. Dhympna wrote,

    I check my students’ work using copyscape to see if they are borrowing from online sources. Don’t editors check before they buy?

  11. Pia Veleno wrote,

    I’m appalled but not entirely surprised. Shame on you Ms. Phoenix.

  12. TeddyPig wrote,

    Dhympna I have used that software and tested it a bit and found it was very uncertain if it would catch things properly.

    Sometimes it will surprise you but not that often unfortunately but the better software sometimes tries Google too which means it does try other forms of checking.

  13. DA Kentner wrote,

    Hopefully Samhain, Siren, or someone will also distribute Ms Phoenix’s real name in order to raise a red flag on anything she submits anywhere, no matter what pen name she writes under from here on out.

    All legitimate writers owe TeddyPig a huge thank you, so… Thank You!

  14. Dhympna wrote,

    I see your point. You are right, Google will pick up most of the similarities.

  15. Tina Haveman wrote,

    I’ve tried several programs and found that not one of them was reliable. I especially used one author’s books that I knew 1000% for sure were clean and written from scratch. The programs came up with so-called plagiarism, but upon checking, they were merely similar sentences. Everything has been done before, written before. There are no new plots.

    To answer an earlier question, if you have a lot of authors aboard, to run all their books through such software would be an impossible task. I trust that 99% of authors are honest and would not resort to such measures. Who knows, maybe the author is the same person as the one who used to be with eXtasy Books.

  16. TeddyPig wrote,

    Since I use databases all the time and web servers I am fascinated by software that’s supposed to help a customer trying to do interesting things like groking the webs. You can try but you are not really meant to.

  17. Chris wrote,

    The audacity of this boggles my mind… especially with the high profile plagiarism cases out there that should illustrate how foolish this is.

    Hmm, TP, I see a market niche for you out there, crafting a really shiny plagiarism sniffer. :)

    And did you happen to submit this to Dear Author?? Perfect for one of their news posts.

  18. TeddyPig wrote,

    We will call it Grok Busters.

    You can cut and you can paste but all your effort shall go to waste.

    Who you gonna call? Grok Busters!

  19. Dhympna wrote,

    @TP I use the premium edition of copyscape which is useful when it comes to highlighting passages that may be lifted. I also use Turnitin. You just have to carefully look at what is being flagged as problematic. I <3 databases.

    @Tina As for an impossible task, to run a digital file through is nothing. I deal with more students a semester than the average publisher deals with in a year. If you have a relationship with authors and you trust them, that is fine. My comment was in regard to signing a new author that the publisher has no history with (this is not to say that someone who has been with a pub for awhile will not lift content).

    While there may be no new plots, there are new stories.

  20. Sunita wrote,

    Plagiarists continue to be so stupid. Increasingly stupid, really, in the age of online communication.

    Chris, as soon as I read Teddy Pig’s post in my RSS reader (probably within an hour of it being posted), I copied the URL of the post and tweeted the info to DA Jane and SB Sarah. It’s being retweeted as we speak. Jane has a lot of followers, and she immediately responded to my post:

    @jane_l @SmartBitches Uh oh, saw this at TeddyPig’s blog. Potential plagiarism alert? On my phone so can’t compare now. http://bit.ly/gpi0qT

    With this post:

    @sunita_d clearly plagiarism. My fave thing is reading plagiarist’s bios “I have worked on my Avatar Series for many years ” @SmartBitches

    So everyone who follows Jane will see it.

    I’m so sorry this happened to JL Langley. I hope Siren Bookstrand takes the obvious action.

  21. Dhympna wrote,

    For shits and giggles, I ran the Phoenix passage through Copyspace Premium and it flagged the WITH LOVE book from Samhain as a partial match and that was the only match.

  22. Tina Haveman wrote,

    I’d love to know the real name to compare. We’ve been on the lookout for the author in question ever since it happened to see if we saw any similarities to the co-written books. Obviously the author would change her name. Interesting that this Phoenix person came into existence not too long afterward.

  23. TeddyPig wrote,

    Dhympna you are making me want to try that software again.

  24. Chris wrote,

    Sunita: Yay! Thanks for doing that and letting us know. :)

    LOL, TP! You already have the catchy jingle!

  25. Dhympna wrote,

    *cringes* Sorry TP.

    I should note that I am not saying copyscape and other plagiarism software are perfect but they are useful tools in my arsenal.

  26. TeddyPig wrote,

    It’s called irony and I love that.

  27. Tina Haveman wrote,

    eXtasy Books belongs to a publishers forum/group and at the time I posted all info I had on the author in question so other publishers were warned. However, who knows what a devious person will come up with.

  28. Jody W wrote,

    I read somewhere that it’s not unheard of for the random self-pubbed digital erotic books to have been lifted from various places that post erotic fic. Wish I could remember where I saw that so I could link you. Some writer found a novel he’d posted for his readers in installments 2 yrs ago or so uploaded under someone else’s name and it apparently had pretty good ratings *laugh*

  29. Debut author Christine Phoenix’s bio, edited for accuracy | VacuousMinx wrote,

    [...] morning Teddy Pig posted excerpts from two books on his blog. One was from a forthcoming book by new author Christine Phoenix, the other from With Love, a novel [...]

  30. Sunita wrote,

    I found her bio to be missing some details, so I amended it here:

    http://wp.me/p1m47r-7I

  31. JA wrote,

    It’s heartbreaking and sickening to see such a criminal act and those who commit such should be permanently banned from the industry.

  32. Juni wrote,

    Pick such an unknown author within the community, why don’t you! Just unbelievable – thankyou for highlighting this. I see the author has disappeared entirely from Siren’s site now (still in the cache, though).

  33. Kate R wrote,

    Ain’t gonna happen, JA. Janet Dailey’s still publishing.

  34. Sarah wrote,

    How cheeky is that. Glad they’ve been snapped and it’s getting sorted. It’s such a tight community did they think no one would notice? Dumb.

  35. KB/KT Grant wrote,

    I would get in touch with someone at Samhain and show them this.

  36. TeddyPig wrote,

    From what I hear they are already on the case.

  37. KB/KT Grant wrote,

    Good work TP. *bows down*

  38. Spaz wrote,

    Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh.

  39. TeddyPig wrote,

    Oh no this was a community effort. Several nasty evil mean girls on a rampage not wanting to be taken advantage of.

    You don’t fuck with nasty evil mean girls of the Gay Romance Community. They will fuck you over and then make you wish you had never been born.

  40. Kate R wrote,

    According to goodreads, it’s been pulled from the schedule. http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/10974862-i-will-follow-you

  41. Chris wrote,

    LOL, Kate R – I updated that, after I couldn’t find it on Siren’s page anymore and after it vanished from the Siren-Bookstrand April calendar.

  42. TeddyPig wrote,

    Poof there it is!

  43. Kate R wrote,

    Aha!
    Sure had a lot of people lining up to buy it. I wonder how many jumped on before this?

    Plagiarists are baffling. There’s something so pathetic and empty in that act — she’s more to be pitied than censured. (<– plagiarized from http://sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiPITYCENS;ttPITYCENS.html — and a whole bunch of Wodehouse books)

    Well, censured and censored too.

  44. TeddyPig wrote,

    Well they can still read it as J.L. Langley ~ With Love like it is supposed to be read.

  45. Moderatrix Lori wrote,

    I just deleted it from the “Best Gay Shifters” Listopia List at Goodreads. The person who voted on it hadn’t even read it yet! Too bad Ms. Phoenix isn’t in my group. I’d delete her as well.

  46. Sara York wrote,

    Oh my God. That is crazy. I can’t believe anyone would do that. How can they look at them selves in the mirror?

  47. Kimberly Hunter wrote,

    As a relatively new author, I can’t understand why anyone would do something so insanely stupid. It’s one of the main reason’s I never, never read anything while working on a WIP. I always save the reading as a well earned gift to myself after I’m done. Plus, didn’t she think she would get caught? I mean really, JL has such a following that the thought alone of what this woman has done just boggles the mind. *shakes head*

  48. TeddyPig wrote,

    We are a small community but most of our members drink heavily and have lots of free time.

  49. Pia Veleno wrote,

    Grok? Did you say Grok?? I <3 you TP! Ah, the memories…

  50. Allure Van Sanz wrote,

    Wow, like a rubber-necker to a train wreck, I had to come see.

    The whole community gasps when something like this happens…right before we check our work and ready the beat-down bats just in case. ;)

    I’m sorry J.L. has to deal with this, but MAN that’s some great publicity right there. ::grins:: I have to go buy With Love now.

    Ya’ll take care and have a great long weekend.
    AyVee
    Allure Van Sanz

  51. AshleyAlexis wrote,

    i noticed Christine Phoenix took the except of: I Will Follow You off her blog… I have the page saved as an offline html file in-case anyone needs it later =p

    I seriously cant believed that happened. i literally read the first couple sentences and was instantly teleported back to when I read With Love… crazy .

    J.L. Langley is being a great sport about this ( from what I can see of her post)

  52. Deborah Blake Dempsey wrote,

    I understand the desire to be published, but you have to do the work, hard as it can be, and don’t steal someone else words and effort. I will never understand why people can think they can get away with this. Readers are smart and many have great memories. If we think we’ve read it before we are going to investigate it and given the power of the internet, we can quickly find the answer. Changing a word here or there of a previously published work does not a book made.

    Sorry to hear you are going through so much aggravation JL. Chin up!

  53. TeddyPig wrote,

    Now Jen just found out her book My Fair Captain is going to be published in Japan by Samhain so it’s not all bad news this week.

  54. Konnor wrote,

    ive only read the exterpt to with love but ive read it quite a few times and ive read all of jl’s other books and i could tell from the start of that other exerpt that it was copyed from JL all that was really done was make the main character a more bad ass wolf and meaner to start the story…. its definitly copyed

  55. Damon Suede wrote,

    What… the… Fuck?

    How contemptuous are you when you are cutting and pasting a much-beloved author’s work into a document into a manuscript and thinking no one will notice? And how STUPID do you have to be? In a world of search engines and internet ubiquity?!?! In a comunity this insular and communicative! And tthe LENGTH of the stolen portion! What a dolt! What a scumbag!

    Please don’t let hiding behind a pseudonym absolve her. Ugh. Vile. I’ve had to go after someone for plagiarism before… lawyers, expert witnesses, the whole megillah and it was one of the worst experiences of my life.

    Christine Phoenix is unlikely to rise from any ashes… But as DA Kentner says “I hope someone will also distribute Ms Phoenix’s real name in order to raise a red flag on anything she submits anywhere, no matter what pen name she writes under from here on out.”

    And can someone explain to me what is UP with Siren? Wowza.

  56. Sunita wrote,

    Just an update to say that SB Sarah included linked to this on her blog, so it will get even more attention:

    http://bit.ly/fiG0LY

    Bad as this has been for JL, it’s an important signal that if you rip off writers in this community, you will get your ass handed to you in a basket. And I also have a saved webpage of Ms. Phoenix’s blog. But something tells me TP does too. :-)

    How do I sign up to be a dues-paying member of the community?

  57. TeddyPig wrote,

    Well a webpage is a webpage but an eBook is always in the edits so the damage is in the writing of the eBook not so much in the excerpt on the webpage.

    No real need to make copies since the publisher got what they got and now know what they have is wrong. If you catch my drift.

    I think Siren~Bookstrand is now aware they got something really wrong.

  58. Sunita wrote,

    True, the important thing is that the book got pulled.

    I updated my blog post, so if readers want the original story they can follow the new links.

  59. TeddyPig wrote,

    Sunita if you review one Gay Romance I heard that automatically makes you a member.
    So just pick one. How about With Love although I liked With Caution better.

  60. Sunita wrote,

    Hey, I’ve reviewed *several* gay romance books over at Dear Author! I can provide references and everything! But not any of JL’s yet (hangs her head in shame).

    Okay, in honor of this crappy event and all the good things that came out of it, I *will* review one of the werewolf books. For real, not acting like I’m Ginia Bellafante reviewing Game of Thrones, if you know what I mean.

  61. TeddyPig wrote,

    Well try With Caution that one had bite to it. Biker wolves and the typical J.L. Langley herd of fun characters to follow. I also think My Fair Captain should be reviewed since it is going Japanese soon which for that book is like going full circle in it’s own Jane Austin meets Star Blazers in a dark alley way.

  62. Sunita wrote,

    I have My Fair Captain in my TBR. Given my love of Regency AND SF, not sure why I haven’t read it yet. I was probably saving it for when I really needed it.

  63. TeddyPig wrote,

    My Fair Captain especially the first chapter is a true comfort read for me. So visually tasty and it sets the mood for the book so well. It’s a real all or nothing thing either you get the japanimation references or you miss the fun but Jen still does not beat people over the head with the references either they are just there firmly attached and part of the story.

  64. Maura Anderson wrote,

    I just ran the two versions through WinMerge and it is really completely obvious to see the differences are small and there’s a ton of uninterrupted identical text.

  65. Kimberly Hunter wrote,

    What I would like to know is how the hell Siren and the editor didn’t notice. JL’s books are so well known, you would have to be blind or just plain ignorant not to notice. Crazzzzyyyy!!!

  66. Dee wrote,

    re: Jody W’s post at April 22nd, 2011 at 1:24 pm – I read somewhere that it’s not unheard of for the random self-pubbed digital erotic books to have been lifted from various places that post erotic fic. Wish I could remember where I saw that so I could link you. Some writer found a novel he’d posted for his readers in installments 2 yrs ago or so uploaded under someone else’s name and it apparently had pretty good ratings *laugh*

    IIRC this was on amazon, someone had taken posts that someone had posted on Literotica over the years and combined them all into a book and were selling it through the DTP. I never heard what happened after that, but i remember reading it in the community.

  67. Merrian wrote,

    @ Jody W and Dee – I think this was likely to be erotica author Denise Rossetti and one of her free serials being plagiarised

    @ Sunita – I am jumping up and down in favour of you reviewing ‘My Fair Captain’ All JL Langley’s books have a great sense of family and connection in them and this book has great humour and spirit as well as the couple’s story.

    @ Teddypig – Thanks for your care and vigilance.

    May be it says something about the success and growth of the genre that this happened but it also strikes me as a deeply envious thing to do. There is no reason behind these negative and spoiling actions just a damaged person doing damaging things through the anonymity of the internet. I am not into witch hunts but I hope for there to be consequences.

  68. Ally Blue wrote,

    TP, thanks for calling attention to this. You know JL’s a dear friend, and I’m pretty angry at this person right now for stealing her hard work. JL put a great deal of painstaking effort into With Love, like she does all her books, and OMG the audacity of this person to come along, copy and paste it and call it her own. I am LIVID on JL’s behalf. Thankfully Samhain was all over it right away and so was Siren.

  69. Kate R wrote,

    I don’t think Siren can be blamed. Even if they had read Langley, editors read so many stories they must blend together in their brains. Some of them don’t have a lot of time to read anything BUT submissions. And I’m not an editor, but if I spent hours and hours reading one sort of book for work, I’d probably reach for another genre during my free time.

    And there’re a lot of ways stories can seem similar/familiar without plagiarism being involved.
    I just read a story that had shapeshifter coyote, lotsa other native american stuff, a powerful woman who loved cars and had the skills to be a mechanic, said woman was discovering new powers all the time, had lots of men lusting after her, lived on the edge of society, put herself in danger etc etc and the story wasn’t by Patricia Briggs.

  70. Dhympna wrote,

    Here is a question–if it is now so easy to cut and paste someone else’s work, tweak it, and make it your own, should publishers at least do a check just to make sure they are not signing someone who is plagiarizing?

    Unlike Kate R, I do hold Siren partly culpable (like 10-20%). I am not naive enough to think students won’t succumb to the temptation to cut and paste, why do epubs especially assume the same?

    There are so many inexpensive tools out there to check a book before signing someone. We are talking about a brand when we are talking about digital publishers.

  71. TeddyPig wrote,

    Dhympna it might be a matter of not knowing about how good the software is getting.

    I bet Copyscape Premium gets more traffic now after this happened.

    There is a lot of junk software out there and it is hard to spend the time to find the stuff that does work for this type of spot the copy stuff.

    Like we were saying before it sometimes takes more than one suite of software and that can get expensive too. Probably not as expensive as publishing a bad eBook though if you think about it.

    But that is hard to say.

    Maybe a good Top ePublisher will set one person up with a Copyscape account and start shooting their submissions through as insurance against bad things happening like this.

  72. Lex wrote,

    Her blog-site is gone now. christinephoenixbooks.blogspot.com/ has been removed. So has her page at Siren. http://sirenpublishing.com/christinephoenix/

    It’s like a cat pissing on the carpet. You can remove the stain but the stench still remains.

  73. Dhympna wrote,

    @TP

    There is that, but it is perhaps something to think about. Here is my issue. The publisher in question is not known for their, shall we say, attention to detail when it comes to editing. Having read a few things presumably written by the author, the mere difference in writing styles is an immediate red flag for me.

    Mind you, I am sort of used to looking for those red flags. I am not saying that every author needs their work checked before a contract is offered, but I am pointing out that publishers saying that it is too difficult, too hard, or even pleading ignorance about the tools out there, just does not seem terribly professional.

    Although, it is the end of semester, and my tolerance for pithy excuses has sort of run out. ;)

  74. TeddyPig wrote,

    There are a lot of fly by night hobby ePublishers out there.

    That is why I spend time weeding out the ones that “feel” wrong and finding the ePublishers I recommend to buy from based on reader responses and writers and general quality when I get an eBook.

    It’s the best I could come up with to insure that the Gay Romance eBooks I was buying were worth buying. Which means some ePublishers well they get shorted by me but those are the breaks.

    It takes a while to even get on my Top ePublisher buy list for a reason.

  75. S.A. Moore wrote,

    As an aspiring M/M writer, I’m throughly pissed off at the gall of this “person.” Aren’t we all supposed to be in this thing together? One hand washes the other and all that? All that jerk-off did is make it harder for the honest writers to do anything. I’m glad she got busted. If you can’t live off of your own talent, then you shouldn’t be in this business,

  76. Linda wrote,

    Teddy, Star Blazers? Grok? Dating ourselves, aren’t we? LOL! What’s sad is I know exactly what you’re talking about!

    Re: plagerism. If this had been 20 or 30 years ago, the chances of this being discovered would have been minute. But with the internet and instant communication, it’s almost dead certain such an insult will be detected. I’m guessing the writer figured that with all the ebooks out there, no one would catch it. I put the blame squarely on the author, not the publisher. And I commend the publisher for immediately taking steps to correct the matter.

  77. Kris Jacen wrote,

    @TP – thanks for making sure that this is widely known. You know JL is one of my good friends and to see her have to deal with this…yeah, made me as LIVID as Ally.

    @Kate R – as an editor, yes I do read a lot both in the genre and out of the genre and although I might not remember every single word I read, some can and do stand out or the tone/plot/characters will ring a bell (so to speak). When an author has a voice it’s hard not to remember it.

  78. Virginia Llorca wrote,

    And yet my grand daughter got a zero when she did a biographical poster for a MATH class and failed to document every sentence. She didn’t claim it was her work and she didn’t expect to get paid for it. Where did we set that moral compass we used to have?

  79. Savanna Kougar wrote,

    Just so you all know, Siren sent out an email to their authors, me being one of them, saying they planned to take legal action against Christine Phoenix for plagiarism.

    Lots of excellent commentary here, so I’ll throw in mine. Sorry, but with the sheer volume of ebooks and print books these days, ain’t NO WAY, imo, to catch everything when a mss is submitted.

    Also, being *falsely* accused of plagiarism back in my college days, some forty years ago, I decided I would create a style of writing no one would likely ever copy. Of course, that means some readers don’t care for it. But, so it goes. I’m happy with it.

    Plus, I rarely read in my genres, except to help out a friend, BECAUSE I WANT A SOLID DEFENSE against any accusations. If there is a similarity, it’s inadvertent, not because I read it somewhere.

    Yes, publishers should take all reasonable precautions. However, the real lack of character lies with those who *steal* other author’s works. And, I’ll bet it will only get bigger and badder because of the current economic depression. That’s not to excuse it. It’s to say that is human nature.

    I trust J.L. Langley will gain in readership, and in rightful profits from this despicable act against her.

  80. Avid Reader wrote,

    As viscerally satisfying as it might feel to point fingers at the publisher, I have to agree with others here who have pointed out that no one can possibly read everything, whether the books are by a popular author or not. There are thousands of ebooks being published on a regular basis, many of them popular. There’s no way one editor or one publisher can possibly read and memorize them all, or even take the hours of manpower to scan each and every submission on the odd chance of catching the one in ten thousand that might have plagiarized. Also, let’s face it, many, many books have similar plots. How many books have I read about shifters being hunted by government agencies, or vampires being stalked by a secret society or whatever. Even knowing plots might be similar wouldn’t necessarily raise a red flag. For whatever other faults they may have, Siren has acted promptly and responsibly and appears to be handling the situation correctly. To blame them is the same as saying JL’s editor should have been reading every other m/m book out there to make sure no one is copying it. It’s just not doable. But there is a way to handle it once it’s been caught, and it seems that all parties are working together to resolve this. Put away the pitchforks and torches, folks.

  81. Jude Mason wrote,

    Like someone else mentioned in this crazy thread of comments, I can understand the desire to be published. What I can’t understand is stealing something and feeling good about yourself when it’s published. I mean, you’d always know it wasn’t yours. How very sad and self destructive!

    Getting ideas from things around you is part of a writer’s life. Taking what someone else has sweated over, it’s just so wrong. I hope the woman learns from her mistakes. I also hope she hasn’t damaged anyone elses career with her stupidity. She had a writing partner, I believe, not that’s really got to suck.

    Teddy, thanks for dragging this out into the light of day. Sad, but hopefully others who might take this path will see it’s not worth it.

    Hugs

  82. Maisey wrote,

    Don’t know if anyone saw this yet, but Christine P has taken her blog down…

  83. JA wrote,

    Consider the following when deciding where to place the blame for any act of plagiarism:
    1-Authors signing contracts legally agree there is no plagiarism.
    2-Most contracts warn authors that discovery of plagiarism means breach of contract.
    3-No one has read everything ever written.
    4-No one can remember everything ever read.

    No person, be it reader, publisher or editor, has read every book out there and can recall everything read. Yes, readers who buy from more than one company might encounter something, as will editors working for more than one company, but I honestly doubt any person has read every published book in existence and can recall everything ever read.

    IMHO, anyone who wants to be an author should know the simple basics of grammar, mechanics and no-nos—like plagiarism is wrong.
    Since the author plagiarized, the author is 100% wrong and 100% to blame. An author’s act of plagiarism should not be the responsibility of the publisher or editor.
    Publishers and editors should not have to look up every book that comes across their desk because an author should not plagiarize to begin with.
    I do not hold publishers or editors responsible for publishing a plagiarized book.
    I do hold an author 100% responsible committing plagiarism to begin with.
    The author is 100% responsible for the act of plagiarism because the author is the one writing/stealing the words and signing a contract stating the author is not committing plagiarism.

    If a reader or editor encounters plagiarism, or even the possibility of such, and alerts the publisher, the fact the publisher responds by pulling the book and dropping the author means the publisher is doing their part.

    As for anti-plagiarism programs, no program is infallible because such is not going to find every source if that source is not available. I have two e-books in my possession right now that I can clearly see the plagiarism. While not the two in this blog, the e-books I refer to are similar to the above and published within the last few years.
    No matter what anti-plagiarism program I ran these e-books through when the incident was first discovered, no program could find the other e-book. I just re-ran both e-books and no program could find either incident, again.
    Since no program found the plagiarized sections before the e-books were pulled and cannot find such now, I presume it has to do with the fact the plagiarized sections were never on the net to begin with.
    Does such demonstrate anti-plagiarism programs are limited? Yes. Anti-plagiarism programs work well for what such programs can find, but not 100% of every fictional book is available for anti-plagiarism programs to search.

    Responsibility is the key. Doesn’t the law say the person committing the act is responsible for the act—even if driven to it? An author’s act of plagiarism should not be the responsibility of the publisher, editor or any other person, but is legally and rightfully the responsibility of the author claiming the written work involving the plagiarism.
    To expect publishers or editors to share any burden or blame for an act of plagiarism when neither the publisher nor editor wrote any of the words is no more right than saying you are responsible when your neighbor breaks down your door and utilizes your kitchen sink for a toilet.

    Personally, I place 100% of the blame for plagiarism on the author who committed the plagiarism—not an editor or publisher. Why? Because it’s where the responsibility belongs. It’s my responsibility to make sure I have fuel in my tank and, when my car is low on fuel and ceases to run because it’s out of gas, the manufacture or dealer should bear any of the burden for my failure to make sure I have fuel in my tank to begin with.

    It is not the publisher or editor’s responsibility to make sure the author hasn’t stolen someone else’s words.
    It is the author’s responsibility when plagiarism is committed.

  84. Lesli Richardson (Tymber Dalton) wrote,

    Kudos for Siren for getting on top of this asap. It is impossible for any publisher to police the slush pile for plaigarism. There is just SO. MUCH. OUT THERE. It’s in our contracts with Siren (as it is with contracts with others hours I’ve signed with, and I’m sure most reputable houses likely have the same clauses) that we claim the work is original and ours. So this Christine Phoenix person has totally screwed themselves legally.

    WHY? Are they really that stupid that that didn’t think someone would find out? They deserve to pay out every penny of damages they’ll owe. Bet they don’t think STEALING is so much fun now, huh?

    My book “The Reluctant Dom” was ripped off, on of all places a Twilight fanfic site, and all they did was change the title and characters’ names. Seriously? A story about BDSM translates to vampires…HOW???

    Fortunately, readers there found out and ratted out the “author” and alerted me. By the time I was notified, the site had already pulled the person’s account.

    Thank the Goddess for honest readers!!!!!

    And I hope we find out the real name (and any other pen names) of this nimrod so we can totally boycott her books (and hopefully find out if she’s stolen from anyone else!).

  85. Dhympna wrote,

    @JA

    I know the difficulties of tracking plagiarism very well and have quite a bit of experience in this matter and you are right, no tool is 100%. Sometimes, even when you know something is plagiarized, you cannot find the evidence.

    Even if publishers exercise due diligence books will still sneak through. That being said, creating an atmosphere where publishers just point the finger to authors to books that they accept without question, to me, with the technology being what it is and the ease that something can be copied, is not terribly professional.

    Yes, the blame falls 98% on the shoulders of the author who was the perpetrator, but I also put a little on the shoulder of the publisher. Why? Because this atmosphere of not even checking tells me the publisher is being irresponsible, especially if a book has such obvious red flags.

    You can only claim ignorance for so long and if you make no effort at all to at least try to prevent a problem, you just help perpetuate it.

  86. Dhympna wrote,

    On a side note, I have heard that there is word on the street that someone is working on a Turnitin like programme for ebooks. I can see a few problems with this programme but if the algorithms can be worked out it may be a useful tool because it would be able to compare the entire work.

    I suppose that my point is that it is something that publishers need to be more active and vigilant about as the market continues to grow.

  87. Savanna Kougar wrote,

    I would only place blame on a publisher if they ‘ignored’ a plagiarized book, and took no action to right a wrong. Having been with Siren for several years now, I know of a couple of incidents that were stopped before the books were offered for sale. So, to suggest the publisher took no responsibility in this matter is incorrect.

  88. Dhympna wrote,

    @Savanna

    Cool. Then that means they are on the watch. More publishers need to be on the watch because I am sure more people will be tempted.

    Most of my waxing prolix is me thinking about why pubs (in general) don’t do more–not just about Siren in particular.

  89. Tina Haveman wrote,

    The tools only work if plagiarized sections are posted on the internet. The tools scout the entire internet. So, if the plagiarized sections are in the middle of the book, unless the book that it was stolen from is posted somewhere in its entirety on the net, the tools won’t find the similarities anywhere.

    In our case of plagiarism the chapter copied and pasted into another book was not at the beginning of the book or used as the excerpt.

    I agree with JA. The publisher has no responsibility in this at all except to remove the book in question immediately from sale at all sales channels and to inform the other publisher. I also think a publisher should share such an author’s real name and information with the industry so that the guilty party will not try the same elsewhere.

  90. Dhympna wrote,

    @Tina

    Please see my above comment about a Turnitin like programme being needed that could search a database of entire works.

    Yes, I do agree that the real name of the person should be shared with other pubs. Universities do that with students who submit falsified transcripts.

  91. TeddyPig wrote,

    “The publisher has no responsibility in this at all except to remove the book in question immediately from sale at all sales channels and to inform the other publisher.”

    I still think an ounce of prevention is worth more than an apology.

    The tools are not perfect but they are available now and they are getting better as shown here on my blog

  92. Savanna Kougar wrote,

    I’ll offer a word of caution here. Yes, once the legalities are sorted out, then it would be appropriate to release the details. However, to blacklist any author before this occurs, opens up a floodgate that *will* also drown the innocent. It’s happened all too often in the past. It is happening now. Someone is jealous, doesn’t like you… whatever, and claims you’ve plagiarized. Maybe they make a sort of convincing case. Easy enough in the computer CGI age. Even the mention that an author has plagiarized when they HAVE NOT, could be enough to sink their careers.

    Personally, I would rather go slow, than to go the route of a blacklist. If anyone has ever read Charlie Chaplin’s autobiography you’ll understand the hell of being falsely blacklisted.

  93. Tina Haveman wrote,

    It needs to be researched and proven, that’s for sure. We never released name publicly, although we, and the other publisher had proof in our hands.

    There is a reviewer with the same name as the guilty party. Only 3 reviews posted in 2009.

    http://christinephoenix.wordpress.com/

  94. JA wrote,

    Yes, a program like Turnitin would be beneficial, but again, there will be limits, hurdles that cannot be cleared.
    For instance, say a program promises to find any plagiarism when comparing any two e-books. That’s great. Now, here’s the catch—
    1-No program is going to just open and scan every e-book in existence.
    2-How many e-books does a publisher need to purchase to keep every e-book on hand to compare each new e-book against?
    3-Is it fair to demand a publisher have a copy of every e-book in order to compare every manuscript to?

    First, since a program would most likely need access to 100% of an e-book to make a comparison, I can’t picture any publisher thrilled with the prospect of a program that can access any e-book on their site without purchasing the e-book first.
    Second, the idea of owning a copy of every e-book available creates a cost I wouldn’t want to incur. I own a lot of e-books, but I certainly could never own every e-book in order to compare any particular e-book to all other e-books out there. Even if divided by genre, that’s still many more than I’d want to count.
    Third, I just can’t picture all the publishers openly sharing every e-book they ever published and then there are all the self-pubbed e-books—yeah, I don’t see any of that as a sharing possibility.

    If an e-book is tested before publication and no plagiarism is discovered, but weeks, months, even years down the road, something is discovered because the plagiarized segment was never posted on the net for a program to catch and compare, who is responsible for the plagiarism slipping through? If the publisher made the attempt and found nothing, but such is discovered and the publisher immediately yanks the e-book, then the publisher should bear no blame.

    As I said previously, neither of the e-books I have ever showed up in any program as being plagiarized because the plagiarized segments were never posted anywhere on the web. Catching this particular case of plagiarism required reading both e-books.

    The very best test for plagiarism always has been and always will be readers because readers have been the sources that have caught it every time and it is in readers I would put my faith, no matter what a program promises.

    Personally, I like the old standby that says if I find plagiarism, I tell the publisher, the publisher yanks the e-book, gives me a different e-book of my choice and the author publically called out—like here.

    I think TeddyPig did an awesome job in catching and reporting it and the publishers did the responsible thing in their actions as well.

    And I am now very interested in reading With Love. LOL

  95. ILR67 wrote,

    Christine Phoenix got herself an attorney! Hmm. This should be interesting.

  96. TeddyPig wrote,

    Well at least you made the attempt to use the software to check for plagiarism even if the software might fail to catch anything that is still ten times more than what is done now.

  97. TeddyPig wrote,

    “Christine Phoenix got herself an attorney!”

    She did?

    Oh really!

    First thing she has to prove is her real name and then she has to provide it to me in any complaint she might have against me. Then I have the right to post these facts publicly while addressing them. No anonymity in a court of law just real names and money, lots of money. Not mine either since I was not the one caught trying to sell other people’s stuff or make a profit at all here since this is a completely non-profit blog with no sources of income. Which I will gladly point out to any attorney looking to make a dime after I get some real names for my next post that is.

    Oh goody goody gumdrops! Check & mate.

  98. Chris wrote,

    “Christine Phoenix got herself an attorney! Hmm. This should be interesting.”

    @ILR67: Drama! Where did you hear that juicy tidbit?

  99. Ciara Lake wrote,

    Hello, this is just a shame. If not the pirates taking our hard work… someone pirates it this way too. How sad. I struggle to make sure I don’t use someone’s idea… you know we read so much… there are only so many ideas in our world. But, to actually steal the very words and so boldly offer it to Siren. I hope Siren really goes after her. And the author and publisher Phoenix stole from should go after her too. Perhaps they should use the system that schools use to check student’s work. I’m sorry that this happened to J.L. Langley. Keep writing your magic Langley and justice will be done.
    Very truly yours,
    Ciara Lake
    Siren Author

  100. ILR67 wrote,

    Ummm…it was in a posting by the publisher in their authors group. They are waiting for Phoenix to “provide all evidence to support her claims.” It didn’t specify what her claims are though.

  101. TeddyPig wrote,

    Was it her claims in her contract maybe? Legal documents and claims and all that.

  102. Alaina wrote,

    @JA: Turnitin.com is not just a software program, it’s a database service. Whenever someone submits a paper to check for plagiarism, that paper is stored in an online database and becomes a document that future essays will be checked against. It also has licensing agreements with other database services, so its ability to check for plagiarism extends pretty far. A version for book publishing would mean that publishers would only have to upload books from their own authors to be stored in a shared database. It would actually make detecting plagiarism significantly easier than you’re imagining, although there would still be the the problem of plagiarism of books not already contained in the database. But, it’s still an incredibly useful tool in combatting plagiarism.

  103. AJ Llewellyn wrote,

    You can’t blame publishers. There is an assumed responsibility on the author’s part to provide authentic, original material. I am glad Siren jumped on this to protect JL Langley’s work.
    When you have a series of stories, you might reproduce a line here or there to catch readers up on background info, but Christine Phoenix just out-and-out stole and that is not acceptable.
    My publisher Tina Haveman has already commented about a problem she had last year but her plagiarist was a long-established best-selling author! It shocked everyone. The answer is, if you can’t write your own material, pick some other career.

  104. Savanna Kougar wrote,

    @Alaina, while this sounds like a logical step and a good idea. I don’t believe it is in the long scheme of things. Hackers being what they are, could easily misuse in significant ways what is on the database, as they already have and are for databases used by banks, and businesses. Plus, there are always those willing to sell the info they have access to, for enough payolla. Hey, Facebook, sells the data they collect right and left.
    And, I bet this is happening, or will, on the database you’re referring too.
    IMO, the answer is not in more technology, but in an expectation of fair play. Only when a contract is violated should action be taken. After all, it was someone who cared, who brought forth this apparent violation. Counting on all of us to do the right thing will work far better in the long run.
    I’m not against the use of technology. I am for the wise use of technology, however.

  105. TeddyPig wrote,

    “Hackers being what they are, could easily misuse in significant ways what is on the database, as they already have and are for databases used by banks, and businesses.”

    Databases used by medical clinics and banks contain private information only abusable when attributed to a specific person that the information contained is about.

    The same is not true for such a database used for this type of activity since the attribution is what you want not what you seek to hide.

    So I disagree that such a database is prone to any such abuse by hackers or anyone else for that matter since the information contained is already public in nature and obtainable simply in another format and is for sale and available as wished for by the author.

    I do not see how contributing or participating in any specific project designed to detect plagiarism is against the wishes of any author seeking to protect their property.

  106. JA wrote,

    I am checking with Turnitin.com, asking for more details because at one point they state they do not add your paper/book to their database and another statement implies they do–I am waiting for their email. Also, the cost could be something many publishers would have to recuperate or offset–companies have to cover their costs, it’s a sad fact of business.

    No matter what it all boils down to, plagiarism is not something readers and publishers should have to worry about because it just shouldn’t be done.

    IMO, a person who steals words is no different and no less guilty than a person who steals a car. For anyone to say publishers are responsible for keeping plagiarism under control is to say that auto manufactures and dealerships are responsible for keeping car thieves in check.

  107. TeddyPig wrote,

    Well used car sellers are only slightly different in the public eye than new car salesmen and they use the same groups to police themselves so you have to admit that analogy does not really help.

  108. Shiloh Walker wrote,

    kudos to Teddypig for drawing attention to this, but count me in as a voice who says the publishers can’t be held responsible for the author being a plagiarist.

    The typical publishing contract includes clauses that state something along the lines of ‘this is my creative work’, meaning, I didn’t copy from somebody else. When the author signs that contract, that means… they AGREE not to turn in somebody else’s work and claim it as their own.

    Once Siren realized this had happened, they took action and removed the work.

    I don’t even know if it would be possible to vet all the books a publisher signs-and it would have to be all, because otherwise, you’d probably be facing claims of unfair practices or whatever. And there would come a cost-more than likely one that was passed on either the reader or to the author, meaning higher costs in books, or lower royalties to the author, or both. I suspect it’s something that would be more complicated than it first appears on the surface-time involved, the software, etc. When all of that comes into play, there’s cost.

    Dunno about any of you, but I’ll pass on having that cost trickle down.

    It’s on the author to turn in an original work, and when they don’t, and it’s found out, then it’s up to the publisher to take action. Siren did, and from what I saw Friday, they took action pretty fast.

    I’m curious, though, just what is CP getting an attorney for? O.o

  109. Alaina wrote,

    Like TP, I seriously doubt that hackers would target an anti-plagiarism database in the way Savanna suggests. I wouldn’t be surprised to see hackers targeting the actual turnitin database since there’s a huge market for student papers out there. However, I think there are easier ways to get pirated than by hacking into a publisher’s database.

    I also think it’s difficult to find a balance between expectations of fair play and a realistic assessment of the kinds of dishonesty unethical people practice. Yes, as a culture, as a community of readers, writers and publishers, we should hold each other to the expectation of honesty. It would be great if everyone just didn’t plagiarize. But, in reality, publishers, like teachers (and I say this as a teacher) need to be aware that not all writers approach their work honestly. Actively guarding against plagiarism is a way to practice holding people to the standard of honesty that most people hold themselves to on their own. If someone hasn’t plagiarized, then there is no consequence to running the book through a database. If they have plagiarized, then the publisher protects themselves and other authors from the cost of a lawsuit and the loss of respect in the industry.

  110. Dhympna wrote,

    @JA

    Okay. Let’s be clear about Turnitin.

    Turnitin is only ONE service offered by iParadigms.

    They also offer Writecheck, a service for students that allows them to pay for credits and check their OWN papers against the database to make sure they did not miss any citations, if a student opts for this service their paper is NOT entered into a database. This is probably the service you are confusing with Turnitin. They are often mentioned on the same page, but are different services with different customers.

    The other service they offer is Turnitin which DOES add any paper/article/whathaveyou into their database. It also crawls the web. This is what I use to check papers against. While it is similar to Writecheck, once a paper is entered it is in the database. If you are concerned with copyright, papers submitted to the database can not be read by other subscribers, if a subscriber wants to read a paper that has been flagged as a match, they must contact the person/institution that uploaded it, it does highlight (on the paper that was uploaded) what is copied.

    They also have a version of Turnitin for admissions offices because, yes, there is a huge problem with falsified and copied documents there as well.

    Finally, they offer iThenticate which appears the be “for the businesses” arm and would likely the be the arm that would deal with book publishers. Looking at this service, I wonder what publishers they do do business with.

    I humbly disagree that this is something that publishers must be concerned with and proactive about as a customer I want to be sure that the business practices are on the up and up with publishers I am giving money to. Let us also be clear that I am not a would-be writer, editor, or even digital pub, but a customer so I am speaking from my consumer POV. I tend to suffer from ostentatious verbal froth and while this is a sad turn of events for everyone involved, such charges do tarnish a publisher’s brand and with digital pubs, brand is very important.

    And yes, people/businesses are often held accountable for purloined merchandise that they sell. For example, pawnshops can get into deep doo doo for receiving stolen property , if you really want to (penalties differ depending on the jurisdiction) continue with erroneous and ill-fitting analogies .

  111. Tina Haveman wrote,

    A pawnshop is hardly a comparison as everyone knows that pawnshops buy stolen goods turning a blind eye, then sells them to unsuspecting customers. Pawnshop owners are aware of what they do. The only time this would apply to a publisher is if the publisher was fully aware that the work in question was indeed copied/stolen. I doubt any publisher out there would even consider it. They’d be putting their publishing house in serious jeopardy.

    In fear of going into repetition, hundreds of thousands of books would need to be loaded into such databases in order to run checks for plagiarism. Every book on the internet would need to be posted somewhere in its entirety.

    No, a publisher is not responsible. The author is 100% at fault.

    The only answer to some of the statements above is copied and pasted below. These clauses are in 90% of contracts offered by publishers. Author signs each page of the contract in agreement:

    A.1. That he/she is the author and sole owner of the Work, or has been assigned exclusive rights to the Work.
    2. That the Work is original and that no part of the Work was taken from or based on any other literary, dramatic, or musical material, or from any film or graphic arts, except as identified in writing by the Author.
    3. That the Work does not infringe upon: i) any copyright; ii) any privacy rights, iii) any other right of a third party; or iv) any common law or statutory law.
    4. That the Work does not contain any material of a libelous or obscene nature.
    5. That the Work is not in the public domain, and that the Work has not been published in any electronic format or trade paperback format with any company that may still own such rights to the Work; and
    6. That the Author holds the full power and authority to grant these rights.

    B. The Author agrees to hold the Publisher harmless and indemnify the Publisher against any claim, demand, action, suit, proceeding, or any expense whatsoever arising from claims of infringement of copyright or proprietary right, or claims of libel, obscenity, invasion of privacy, or any other unlawfulness based upon or arising from claims or infringement of copyright or proprietary right, or claims of libel, obscenity, invasion of privacy, or any other unlawfulness based upon or arising out of the publication or any matter pertaining to the Work.

  112. Dhympna wrote,

    @Tina

    RE; Pawnshops, and that, Tina is why I even called my own analogy a pawnshop erroneous and still think you missed the point. Pawnshop owners could turn a blind eye and not ask about provenance. They could not ask for proof of ownership. Do they still sometimes end up with stolen items? Yes, but most make an honest effort to make sure that is not the case. But as I said, this is just as erroneous as the used car analogy.

    Re’ My point of view–> As a consumer, I don’t care what the contract says to absolve a publisher of wrongdoing. To me it is just excuses, that is how I feel. I know that possible tools are out there and I know that whoever develops a better tool will make a lot of money because it would make things so much easier.

    We will have to agree to disagree.

    As a consumer, and I am not alone, this *does* damage the brand whether pubs like it or not and like TP said, an ounce of prevention is worth far more than an “Oh shit, we were taken too” apology later. Academic pubs have to deal with the tarnish of plagiarized or unsubstantiated works–why do you think it would be any different for fiction pubs?

    Publishers who want to hide behind contracts for products that *they* sell on behalf of others (authors) do not instill confidence in consumers. I worked retail for years and customers often judge retailers on bad products that they carry. Is it fair? Probably not, but that is how it works.

    Here is why brand is important, when it comes to new authors, I shop particular pubs because I know their brand and because I have faith in their brand, I am willing to give a new-to-me author a shot. This is why I see brand as so important and why I see plagiarism and not being vigilant such a detriment.

    Before anyone jumps up and down, again, I shall reiterate that I am well aware that it is impossible to catch all plagiarists, this does not excuse systems put in place to prevent such occurrences.

  113. Dhympna wrote,

    Oops. Language skills failing. I meant to say at the end that this does not excuse not having systems.

  114. Savanna Kougar wrote,

    “Dunno about any of you, but I’ll pass on having that cost trickle down.” I’m in total agreement with this. We let a few nasties out there drive down our royalties. I doubt the cost would balance out in the favor of honest authors.

    Yeah, you’re right, TP, it is different info. However, imo, it could be used just as devastatingly by those who have that kind of criminal cunning. And, truthfully, I DO NOT want my books in that kind of database for the same reason I do not put any info on FACEBOOK… not to mention Google is already doing that, bit by bit, and will eventually make a case to grab every copyrighted work, regardless of permission.

    Now, if a publisher has some reason to believe my book is in question, hey, go ahead, check it out. That’s the right of the publisher.

  115. Pia Veleno wrote,

    Regardless of legal culpability, the publisher will have a black mark in some consumer minds. Reputation is not protected by a contract.

  116. Dhympna wrote,

    @Savanna

    And yet you publish digitally? The logic does not compute for me. Your work is far easily available to those with “criminal cunning.”

    Um…Yeah.

    Academic work is more sensitive and yet that database is pretty secure. :/

    RE: Cost

    Since a fiction database is not in existence, and you don’t know if it is a subscription based service or a yearly fee, complaining about added costs is jumping the gun right? For all you know it could be negligible cost.

  117. Camille Beauvoire wrote,

    Added cost? Copyscape costs ten cents per search. And it searches the net for matching content.

    As a freelance copywriter at my day job, I’m required to verify my content through Copyscape. Why should fiction be any different?

    Further, why won’t publishers at least consider using a system like this? Cost? Whatever. Like I said, .10 per search. It’s the same as investing in a good marketable cover and quality editing. Epublishers are always talking about how they are at the head of this great change coming to the publishing industry, so be the change instead of clinging to the old way of doing things like assigning blame and saying its not your fault. And this isn’t directed specifically at Tina, but at the e-pub industry as a whole.

    Nobody wants to hear about how it’s not anyone’s fault. That’s just more noise. That’s a peek behind the curtain readers don’t want and don’t care about. Fine. Whatever. Maybe it’s not. We don’t care.

    But why wouldn’t you want to protect yourself and your authors? It would build the brand and instill confidence to see the copyscape banner or of another comparable service.

  118. Alaina wrote,

    Re: Time spent uploading books to databases

    While publishers who’ve been in business for decades or longer may have published hundreds of thousands of books, most newer publishers wouldn’t face that kind of burden. Additionally, there are definitely ways to simplify the process. For example, if you’ve ever used dropbox, there’s a downloadable desktop feature that allows you to instantly drag and drop files into the dropbox. I’m not a programmer, but I imagine something similar could be worked out by this database we’re imagining.

  119. Alaina wrote,

    Oh, and I’m talking about time in terms of establishing a database, not the time it would take to scan books being considered for publication. In that sense, it would be the time of a few seconds or minutes for people vetting submissions, which really isn’t any time at all.

  120. TeddyPig wrote,

    It’s not that much of a imaginative thing actually several services are offered that do exactly what we are gabbing about and do it relatively well. All books should be in electronic format by now or the publisher is probably going to be gone soon either way the author will get their books back to handle this issue themselves and probably looking for an ePublisher to trust their eBooks with.

  121. Dhympna wrote,

    @TP

    I know. I was just thinking that in the hands of a dedicated programmer this would be an awesome project since the templates are already there.

  122. Camille Beauvoire wrote,

    OOps. Correction. Copyscape is .05 cents per search. :)

  123. Alaina wrote,

    Oh yeah, I was only using the term ‘imagining’ in the sense that we’re discussing an idea rather than a specific program or system for publishers of fiction, rather than existing services offered for academics or web publishers. It seems like something targeting to publishers like Samhain or Siren wouldn’t be that difficult to put together at all, given what’s already out there.

  124. Dhympna wrote,

    Oh and actually Tina, in quite a few states a pawn shop can get into serious trouble for “turning a blind eye.” The laws differ from state to state, but all of the pawnshops around here do check because if they receive stolen property they are not only in danger from other charges but they also lose any money they put into that item. So, even still erroneous, my analogy does hold some weight in regard to the precedence of culpability.

    Just thought I would point that out. ;)

  125. JA wrote,

    As I previously mentioned, I have put in an inquiry to Turnitin.com as it was the Turnitin.com site I was on and it was the contact us that I hit and asked the question to. I am sure that Turnitin.com will provide the answers because all of this about Turnitin.com and adding to their database is for naught if they do not add ebooks to their database. Should Turnitin.com not work, I will continue a search for something that could work for publishers at an affordable cost.

    Either or, to black mark a publisher for something one author did is really unfair and much the same as to black mark all authors for something a publisher did. I certainly wouldn’t black mark all readers for what the what those who pirate do, nor would I black mark all publishers with the same brush because one publisher went bad.

    You can’t judge all from the one.

  126. Dhympna wrote,

    @JA

    You are right, that “black mark” can work both ways. It does and it has as I have heard from various authors.

    I think I know what you saw and Writecheck is often advertised on the Turnitin homepage because that is how they lure students in. :)

  127. JA wrote,

    I’m anxious for an answer as my email went to sales@turnitin.com. :)

  128. Dhympna wrote,

    Oh, and um, really? I don’t think it is right to bring “pirate” into this conversation.

    You are trying to sell to consumers, not the other way ’round. Without consumers, pubs and writers would not get paid, and bringing up pirates is just a deflection from the real issue of plagiarism (which is so not the same thing) and selling a purloined work with someone else’s name on it.

    I swear there needs to be a Godwin’s Law type law each time someone in the pub industry brings up piracy in a thread that is not about piracy or threaten to liken all consumers as pirates.

    *cue dramatic eye roll*

  129. Dhympna wrote,

    @JA

    I will be interested to see what they say. I only have experience with their academic products.

  130. Jackie wrote,

    I googled siren out of curiosity and saw this on brendahiatt.com site, show me the money. Do you know if these figures are accurate? I dont understand. How is it posdible you make more at siren than at elloras cave or samhain? Can someone from siren confirm these figures, please.

  131. Monday Stepback: Jennifer Egan, Andrew Shaffer, Josh Lanyon, Ana T. | Read React Review: Rethinking romance and other fine fiction wrote,

    [...] The latest in plagiarism: in journalism, Ed Champion is a victim, and in m/m romance, it’s JL Langley. [...]

  132. Lesli Richardson (Tymber Dalton) wrote,

    Jackie,

    For my raciest books, those figures are low. I know several authors making over $100k a year with Siren. BUT, they’re also writing the hardcore stuff. My book Cross Country Chaos, which is contemporary romance, sells in a month what some of my other books do in a day. They also make good use of third-party sites for sales, and advertise in RT magazine.

    I am definitely a very happy Siren author. LOL They pay on time, they are highly responsive to questions, and they are awesome to work with.

  133. JA wrote,

    Okay, I heard back from iThenticate Plagiarism & Duplication Prevention for Professionals. While I don’t think it’s going to be doable due to cost and access of content.
    I don’t know if I can post over 700 words or not, so to make this easy, I’ll do it in several steps and simply copy and paste the email so the information you see is what was provided to me.

    –begin email–

    Hi Jay

    Thank you very much for your inquiry. I have addressed your questions below.

    1A: Cost per book:

    Standard licensing is offered on an annual subscription basis. Cost is largely based on anticipated page submission volume (i.e. your estimate of pages to be submitted over the course of one year). Subscriptions include unlimited users. The standard pricing structure is as follows:

    Minimum License Cost: $1,000.00 for unlimited users (includes 500 pages* of submissions)

    Additional pages priced according to the following tiered model:

    For pages 501 through 2,500: $1.00 per page
    For pages 2,501 through 10,000: $.50 per page
    For pages 10,001+: Negotiated

    * A page is defined as up to 500 words of text per submission.

  134. JA wrote,

    –continued email–

    1B: Is size a factor?

    The single file size may not exceed 20 MB. Files of larger size may be reduced in size by removal of non-text content. Files that are password protected, encrypted, hidden, system files, or read only files cannot be uploaded or submitted to iThenticate. The zip file upload accepts up to 1000 files or 200 MBs of zipped data. A zip file to be uploaded may not exceed either limit. Zip files should be checked to ensure only usable file formats are included in the upload. PDF files must be text-based (the system does not recognize image based files).

    2A: Can you compare fiction novels?

    Yes, however, it’s not our strong suit. Our core strength is science, technical, medical and Internet content.

    2B: Do you have access to all e-books ever published in order for us to say we did all we could to combat plagiarism?

    No. The breadth of our content repositories is unparalleled, however, we do not have access to all of the e-books (or content for that matter) in the world (if we did, no one would be able to afford our service). Below, I’ve included some detailed information about our content repositories.

    We crawl the Internet in the same fashion as general search engines, so iThenticate users can compare content to billions of Internet pages and Internet documents (our crawlers harvest about 500 web pages per second). In addition, we archive web content back to eight years. This distinguishes us from search engines in that they only maintain current or fresh online content. Our subscription content includes over 110 Million content items (periodicals, biographies, journals, news wires, magazines, books, text books, conference abstracts, broadcast transcripts, travel guides, brochures, encyclopedias, and reference books).

  135. JA wrote,

    –continued email–

    iThenticate library databases to which content is compared includes:
    • Gale InfoTrac One File – http://www.gale.cengage.com/onefile/ (includes over 11,500 titles; periodicals, broadcast transcripts, travel guides, magazines, journals, and books)
    • CrossCheck* – http://www.crossref.org/crosscheck.html (participating academic publishers have provided us with more than 29M published research articles; title list on CrossCheck home page)
    • Emerald Journals – http://www.emeraldinsight.com/Insight/menuNavigation.do?hdAction=InsightHome (includes over 190 journal titles; the world’s leading publisher of management research)
    • ABC-CLIO – http://www.abc-clio.com/ (historical content and resources)
    • SAGE Reference – http://www.sagepub.co.uk/reference.nav (160 encyclopedia titles; title list is proprietary)
    • SAGE Journals – http://online.sagepub.com/browsejournals.dtlcoll=all&journaltitle=Browse+by+Journal+Title#Y (includes over 560 journals; Business, Humanities, Social Sciences, Science, Technology and Medicine)
    • PubMed/MedLine- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/, http://www.nlm.nih.gov/databases/journal.html (more than 1M abstracts and citations; medical resources)
    • Pearson, McGraw-Hill, & Wiley-Blackwell – (more than 1850 academic textbooks)
    • EBSCOhost – (nearly 1M content items from a cross-section of databases periodicals, biographies, brochures, encyclopedias, magazines, journals and books)

    2C: Do you store our ebooks for future comparison against other e-books?

    No. Your uploaded content is at no time stored in a database that is shared with other licensed iThenticate members or third parties. Customers may however, purchase a customizable search target (aka database) to which preferred content can be uploaded. Subsequent documents could then be compared to this repository (this service is not included with standard licensing).

    I would encourage you to schedule a free trial of the service so you can see firsthand the application’s capabilities and limitations. Trials are offered at no cost and bring no obligation to purchase. I am confident you will be impressed.

    If you would like to proceed with a trial, please let me know when you would like the account activated. Thanks again for your interest Jay.

    Regards,

    Greg
    _______

    –end email–

    The person is Greg Mathers, Territory Sales Manager / Central and Western US at http://www.iThenticate.com

    I hope this helps provide some answers.

  136. CC wrote,

    Jackie,

    The range Brenda Hiatt gave Siren looks low. I made over $100k with them last year. My last royalty payment was nearly $32k. They pay me on time every quarter. The staff is friendly and professional. Siren is awesome to work with.

  137. Dhympna wrote,

    I think Hyatt’s figures are talking about ONE book. I am assuming you made 100K with multiple titles.

    And, being a cynic, I would still like to see the books that are earning out so much because I simply do not believe it.

  138. CC wrote,

    Dhympna,

    My bad for looking over Hiatt’s page so quickly and associating the range with the median. I would love to make $100k on ONE book though, LOL. OMG, wouldn’t I love that! I have over a dozen titles with Siren. Sorry, I’m not going to tell you who I am, like I’m going to risk being in breach of my contract! With all due respect, it doesn’t matter if you don’t believe me.

  139. Dhympna wrote,

    *snort*

    I was not asking and this, quite frankly, just adds to my skepticism.

  140. Camille Beauvoire wrote,

    CC,

    That’s great you’re happy with them and doing so well.

    But can I ask a question? Why would it be in violation of your contract to advertise how well you’re doing with your publisher? Don’t they want more submissions? More authors? More sales? It shows on the Siren website the 100K club.

  141. CC wrote,

    I’ll end this right here because the risk is too great. I have to protect my livelihood. I don’t have to prove anything. Anyway, I don’t have very thick skin. Someone will buy my books and pick them to pieces to teach me a lesson. I wouldn’t be able to handle it and would post something I’ll regret. I’m not going to head down that path and end up looking like some loony author who lost her marbles because she was stupid enough to stamp her name on the public chopping block. So, I’ll mind my own business as I should have in the first place and go back to writing.

  142. TeddyPig wrote,

    People that want to “state as fact” usually provide little things like you know… facts. But that was the problem from the beginning… lack of facts. This is not an argument of perceptions or beliefs since you are not a cult or a religious order but of questioning supposedly real things like hard numbers which are not debatable.

  143. ILR67 wrote,

    “…public chopping block…”

    LOL
    I get you, Siren sister!
    Like readers, in a public forum, can’t please ‘em all no matter how you presented it.

  144. TeddyPig wrote,

    Ah yes, nothing like watching a bunch of writers acting like cheerleaders.

    None of us anonymouses got no facts and aint sold shit but we got spunk!

    Blah blah blah sweety!

  145. Zephus wrote,

    Interesting. In some ways, I am not surprised. In other ways, I’m shocked.

    I spent forever going through each message to figure out just what was at issue. It was not immediately obvious from the way things were posted. The way I understand it, an unknown and previously unpublished author plagiarized a well-known author’s work, an author who frequents this forum. Further, it seems that many well-known authors seem to have weighed in on the subject here, as if it is all an extremely close, even incestuous, network of friends.

    Notwithstanding anything to the contrary herein, I certainly do not want any of my work plagiarized, and will not plagiarize the work of others. Nevertheless, I am left in deep puzzlement over a number of issues that this situation brings up.

    1) Many feel the publisher is responsible to some degree. If this is true, then it is not worth publishing the work of anyone due to the heavy burden of responsibility. Is the obligation limited, or unlimited? If limited, then at what point has the obligation of responsibility been met? DUE TO THIS ISSUE NOT BEING ANSWERED, would it be best for my company to refuse to accept manuscripts from other authors, even if I read them and do not recognize them as plagiarized?

    2) What is the precise definition of plagiarism, so that I may know when I personally cross that border? Seems like I should know the answer to this even though every word I use I believe to be my own. At what point does plagiarism begin? Without a precise definition, then every word I use that has been used before me, is copied. If I use the word “and”, and someone else has used the word “and” in a previous book, is my “and” original, or is it plagiarized? While this question on its face seems ridiculous, as a “professional writer” I possess a need to know where the line is and when it is crossed. As someone above so aptly pointed out, nothing is new under the sun. Would similar book titles be considered plagiarism, how about a similar theme or thought?

    3) Whose rules do we go by? The laws in my country do not consider copied information posted on Internet to be plagiarism, while they do in yours. While what I read of the instant plagiarism case does indeed cross a “moral” boundary that I will not cross and do not wish others to cross, I recognize that in many countries what this author did was totally acceptable. Does an “International Standards Association” exist that can judge “plagiarism” and enforce its will? Or is it all just talk among a squabbling bunch of incestuous friends who call each other authors?

    4)This squabbling talk has international ramifications: I personally posted a few of MY OWN books on 4shared as freebees for anyone who wanted them. In short order I received “Legal Notice” from an attorney firm representing several authors in this forum above that demanded I cease and desist due to the fact that they owned the copyrights on all MY books! I was next hounded by several authors for “illegal file sharing” of MY books that I authored and never published previously. The crack about “incestuous friends” begins to ring true, as new authors are “not invited here” in the writing community. Are these the incestuous group of friends who are going to define the international standards for plagiarism?

    5) You so-called “professional writers” are killing your own book sales. If I want to read any books published and sold by Samhain, Ellora’s Cave, Amazon, or others, my credit card is unilaterally refused even though it draws on a valid United States account, because, the computers’ IP address I am ordering it from is located in Eastern Europe. You are so worried about pirates that these publishers would force me to become a pirate if I so much as desire to read one of your books! Not a wise business decision, and not a group of people I would want making decisions about defining plagiarism morals or laws.

  146. TeddyPig wrote,

    “This squabbling talk has international ramifications: I personally posted a few of MY OWN books on 4shared as freebees for anyone who wanted them.”

    HUH?

    I do not understand whatever it is you were just trying to say. Maybe one of those other authors can enlighten me here.

  147. Zephus wrote,

    I am simply saying that you were extremely sharp to have noticed this issue, and wise to bring it to our attention. However, the nature of the beast is so complex that judgments made by many others here should not be rushed into without precise definitions and without knowing the jurisdiction involved.

    Writers do not seem to possess a good understanding of state law, not to mention international law, and appear herein to be leaping to unfounded conclusions. This is not good business practice. Leave the publishers alone, provided they are responsive when plagiarism is pointed out.

    Writers who are so worried about piracy that they violate both their own laws and international laws in a futile attempt to prevent it, are not writers that I would want rendering a judgment on a jury as to a definition of plagiarism that holds international regard,

    Personally, I wonder how much plagiarism is done for the sole purpose of mocking this close-nit group of authors who take every opportunity to discourage “new blood”.

    None of this was intended as a personal attack on you. I repeat, you are to be commended. But I am seriously questioning — and mocking — some of the others weighing in on this forum.

  148. TeddyPig wrote,

    Well I did not notice it someone actually sent me an email and then I followed up myself because obviously I don’t just out right accuse anyone of something like this without doing my own reading.

    I then went to the author’s web page which contained the excerpt at that time and read it and then I located the similar scene in the eBook J.L. Langley wrote because it is that obvious where it came from originally and I pulled that excerpt by itself to check out the similarities without any added distractions.

    Then I posted both here for you readers to check out for yourself without having to go searching like I did or just taking my word for it.

    That is all.

    You see my next post about this on the blog here someone went so far as to put the whole excerpt into software that checks for this exact issue and it verified what we all were seeing and reading for ourselves.

    So all this was an act of a whole community having it’s say and speaking out against something being done to one of the Gay Romance community’s authors.

    No “one” person decided all this before bringing it to light it was several people all working together seeing the same thing.

    I feel pretty comfortable in believing that anyone reading all this posted above can make up their own mind on the issue. I do not want to “explain it” like it is something you need to teach people not to do anymore than what you see is what I saw and I know how it makes me feel and I hope you as a writer feel the same way about it.

    Because in the end that is what will stop this “problem” from continuing to happen is “that feeling” that what has been done here to this author is not “right” and it is never “right”.

  149. Siren~Bookstrand: An Admission Of Bias | The Naughty Bits wrote,

    [...] expected when I posted about the latest bit of news about Christine Phoenix that I would get some fucking flack for it from the peanut gallery. I will gladly admit sure you [...]

  150. Jackie wrote,

    Thanks cc for the info. I went and did some due diligence. Piers anthony revealed siren sales # on his site, so i believe it cant be that far off. Thanks for sharing and congrats on doing well.

  151. TeddyPig wrote,

    Piers Anthony did not reveal anything from what is there and has been for a while he simply reprinted some promo material they sent him and I notice they continue the whole repeated “selling the dream” thing without any facts like what books sold so well and what genre the authors actually made all those sales in.

    You want to raise every red flag in my mind? Allude to writers making “6 figures or more!” without using actual names or even actual book names and then throw some unsubstantiated publishing numbers around without any royalty figures and so on and then slick it all up with a sales pitch that some used car salesmen thought about using but decided against because it had no sincerity.

    If we are talking that they are actually making big money from all those “6 figure sales” then why no named editors or successful cover artists? It sounds to me like if they had the money they should be using it to make the publisher and products better in more substantial ways that would be evident to readers buying their books not sitting around pitching “cash for mold-y manuscripts” to anyone who will post this hype in their comment section.

    Anyway, I will wait and see if Emily gets any data from all this for EREC to post and compare.

  152. Chris wrote,

    I thought that this was an interesting bit of information, related to Christine Phoenix’s so-called second book.

  153. jesshaines.com Blog » Saturday News Roundup wrote,

    [...] First up, we have Teddypig’s excellent detective skills uncovering blatant plagiarism. The book with the copied text has been pulled. Read the full story and see the details for yourself here. [...]

  154. JA wrote,

    Greg Mathers, Territory Sales Manager / Central and Western US at http://www.iThenticate.com recontacted me and said the estimated annual cost would be $9,000.00…that’s not a small burden for any e-pub. :(

  155. TeddyPig wrote,

    Well I just bought an Epson printer for Jason for his business that cost that much but he makes enough to cover those types of expenses.

    Depends though, if you are making 6 figures like they say they are then maybe the expense could just be another write off on their taxes.

  156. A Message From J.L. Langley | The Naughty Bits wrote,

    [...] I was the victim of plagiarism a few months ago. For those who don’t know, you can see it here: http://tinyurl.com/427nfup, where my good friend Teddy Pig blogged about it. My thanks to him again for drawing attention to [...]

  157. A. Catherine Noon wrote,

    I just read J.L. Langley’s article on her experiences and she noted you were the one who originally caught it. Bravo. Thank you for your support of authors you like, and thank you for bringing this important issue into the open. That author – thief, really – should be ashamed.

    Thanks for sharing what happened and caring enough to let the author whose work was stolen know what happened.

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